EDITORIAL: Mandatory vaccination reform must be among 2016 Colorado legislative goals

In Colorado, it’s much easier to say that you don’t want to vaccinate children than to prove that you have

The long list of pressing issues facing the Legislature for the 2016 session keeps growing: spiraling college costs, unaffordable health care, gun control, deteriorating roads. But the one issue facing all of Colorado that can’t go untended this session is vaccination.

Colorado regularly ranks worst or near-worst in the nation for vaccination rates, and it’s costing lives, health and millions of dollars.

The problem stems from past legislators, succumbing to fake science and political pressure, who were either sympathetic to odd parents who didn’t want to vaccinate their children, or shortsighted in thinking that making it easy to “opt-out” of mandatory vaccines was just no big deal.

The root of most of this building crisis comes from a discredited study run by a discredited doctor to tie autism to childhood vaccinations, and the U.S. media bought the hoax hook, line and sinker, helping to legitimize it. The groundless claim and fake study have since been debunked endless times. There is not one reputable pediatrician, pediatric organization, hospital, clinic or researcher that does not vehemently work to debunk the autism lie and beg parents to vaccinate their children.

In Colorado, it’s much easier to say that you don’t want to vaccinate children than to prove that you have.

Many lawmakers and much of the public erroneously believed that since the bulk of the “herd” was vaccinated against potentially lethal diseases such as measles, polio and whooping cough, we’re all protected.

They’re wrong. Dead wrong for some people. The incidence of those diseases continues to increase as vaccination rates decline. Last year reports of deaths of people with depressed immune systems sounded an alarm for all of us: Colorado, and the country, is at grave risk.

One death followed a measles outbreak at Disneyland earlier this year that sickened 100 people, all because foolish, misled, selfish people have avoided childhood vaccination rules.

Real scientists and medical professionals have been unequivocal: The purported danger of childhood vaccines are lies. Dangerous lies.

Colorado must join California in solving an ailing public health problem that’s easy to cure. This summer, California virtually eliminated all exemptions to that state’s childhood vaccination policy.

“The science is clear that vaccines dramatically protect children against a number of infectious and dangerous diseases,” said Gov. Jerry Brown. “While it’s true that no medical intervention is without risk, the evidence shows that immunization powerfully benefits and protects the community.”

California now requires every child who attends a public school or college to undergo vaccination. Colorado must do the same thing to prevent death and disease caused by irresponsible and reckless parents.

The state cannot command these vaccinations, but lawmakers certainly can force scofflaws to stay away from public programs and venues. Schools, rec centers, colleges, day cares and employers should all demand that people comply with vaccination programs.

A sorry response by Colorado lawmakers earlier this year does nothing but increase reporting of vaccination rates and make it only slightly less easy to not vaccinate school-age children.

It’s almost unthinkable that a country like the United States would slide back decades in health care progress, risking the lives of millions of Americans potentially exposed to diseases we nearly eradicated — because of lies, laziness or ignorant fear.

But parents still won’t listen and comply. So the only answer is to change the law. Follow California’s lead here and prevent needless death and disease here in Colorado.

  • Dorit Reiss

    Good luck in your efforts to make Colorado safer from disease, protecting all children and adults.

    I know many people worked heroically on the previous legislation, and it’s sad that some of your senators let extremist undermine a reasonable change and refused to make schools safer. Better luck forward.

    • Tannim

      And here we have the Chief Paid Troll, the Queen of Shilliness, who does nothing but pollute the Internet with her pro-poison nonsense…

    • That is quite a remarkable statement, Dorit. Considering Senator Richard Pan was being directed by paid lobbyists Norman Janus, Jodi Hicks, and Katherine De Burgh.

      You should be personally familiar with Katherine De Burgh because she is also a part of the same organization, California Immunization Coalition, that you have presented at many times along with Dr. Paul Offit and many others you associate with.

      I am also quite confident that the person who authored this opinion piece is likely associated to Voices for Vaccines – another organization you are involved with.

      • Dorit Reiss

        I do recommend studying more about the political process. Consulting with lobbyists who have familiarity with the subject matter or with politics is very common and expected – it doesn’t mean the lobbyists were directing anything. It’s hardly surprising the California Immunization Coalition supported pro-vaccine legislation – or that I, and Dr. Offit, have presented at a non-profit whose goal is promoting immunization, given our stated support for protecting children from disease. Trying to present any of that as some conspiracy is a little weird.

        Dr. Pan clearly chose knowingly to go forward with SB277. His experience with AB2109 taught him he will face harassment and attacks from the anti-vaccine extremists, and he did. Nonetheless he courageously acted to protect children and the public health. I have a lot of respect for him on that score.

        To my knowledge, the author is not affiliated with Voices for Vaccines, though I would urge her, given her views, to join and to donate. I would point out that membership in a non-profit that supports your views is hardly a conspiracy either.

        • I also recommend parents study more on the companies that fund the organizations you belong to. It’s quite eye-opening.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I do understand that it’s hard to argue when the data is against you, and a shill or conspiracy argument is often all that is left. But it really doesn’t change data.

            I have no idea where California’s Immunization Coalition gets its funding. But frankly, volunteering with pro vaccine organizations, regardless where they get donations, can’t show much except that I do, in fact, support protecting children from diseases via vaccines – and thats no secret. I support vaccines, as does every health authority in the world, local state or national, because they save lives and have very few risks. You don’t need a conspiracy theory to know i think that.

          • Tannim

            In other words, denial is not just a river in Egypt. It’s Dorit’s blood type.

          • I also understand it is difficult to discuss financial motives and profits. Most people can recognize money can influence people and the decisions they make. To ignore that money can do this to people is dangerous.

            I can also understand that you do not want to be perceived as profiting from being a shareholder in a pharmaceutical company.

          • Katia

            Do you have a 401K? Do you know all the stocks it’s invested in?

          • If you own any mutual funds, you are also a shareholder in pharmaceutical companies. The idea that being a stock owner is the only reason someone would advocate vaccination is bizarre, given how small the profits of such ownership would be. And of course, given that there are basically no epidemiologists or neurologists or immunologists who think that vaccines are dangerous or ineffective, it’s bizarre to think that the only reason someone would agree with the consensus of experts is a shadowy conspiracy.

          • Your statements defy logic.

          • Katia

            You don’t think mutual funds have pharmaceutical stocks in their portfolios? Do you think the earth is flat, too?

          • Dorit Reiss

            People can recognize that financial motives matter. Volunteering in a non-profit isn’t one of those motives, though, however you like to pretend it is.

          • Dorit, I know it is difficult for you to just come out and say it.

            Do you or your family own stock in a pharmaceutical company that may financially support a non-profit organization that you volunteer for?

          • Dorit Reiss

            It’s not a secret that my family owns stock in GSK. But then, that wasn’t the argument you used. This issue doesn’t really have to do much with weaving a complex conspiracy theory around Voices for Vaccines and the CIC. You could just ask that, and get a direct answer.

          • You like to label anyone who disagrees with you as an extremist or a conspiracy theorist.

            It’s really quite simple.

            Money.

            For those with eyes to see and ears to hear – the lobbyists mentioned above, working for/with Senator Pan are documented working for organizations supported financially by pharmaceutical companies.

            Richard Pan has also received considerable financial contributions from pharmaceutical companies.

            The organization(s) that you also volunteer for… and are invested in – pharmaceutical companies.

            No conspiracy. Just follow the money, Dorit.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Sigh. No conspiracy, but there’s a conspiracy between lobbyists, non profits and pharma. Please reread what you wrote.

          • Graceds

            Ms Reiss, Senator Pan is on video, taking instructions from a lobbyist during the Sb277 proceedings.

          • Dorit Reiss

            No, Senator Pan is seen talking to a lobbyist. He is allowed to talk to people.

          • Graceds

            Not what I see on the video, at the what do I do moment in the Senate.

            http://www.jeffereyjaxen.com/blog/lobbyist-calling-the-shots-for-sb277-community-outpour-ignored

          • Dorit Reiss

            You think you can conclude from the video that he is taking instructions from anyone? Okay.

          • Graceds

            From the article

            After passing the Sacramento Health Committee vote, the bill was delayed as committee chair Senator Carol Liu wisely told the bill’s author Richard Pan “If I were you, I would not take a vote today.” At the conclusion of the vote, Liu asked Senator Pan point blank how he wanted to proceed.

            To this, Pan, appearing to have no power to make the decision, turned to lobbyist Jodi Hicks and Janus Norman……

            A shining moment for the power of lobbyists.

          • Dorit Reiss

            It’s unclear why the article thought Dr. Pan had no power to make the decision. As the Senator proposing the bill, of course he had. But an implausible interpretation in an anti-vaccine article is not exactly evidence Dr. Pan was taking instructions from anyone. He could ask anyone he wanted to for opinion or advice.

          • Graceds

            “He could ask anyone he wanted to for..advice”
            And he did.
            He asked the lobbyist.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Yup. That’s not taking instructions – from anyone.

          • Graceds

            Not taking instructions, he just asked the lobbyist for advice on what to do…okay. Got it.

          • Justthefacts

            And Dr Pan just survived the recall attempt. A shining moment for the weakness of the loony anti-vaxx movement.

          • suz norkan

            Agreed! With body language being at over 55% of the 3 tools used for interpreting our communication [ even over words and tone] I saw a nervous and CONFUSED individual looking to the lobbyists for answers on how to reply!

            Only someone who is insincere or imperceptive would conclude anything else after studying the video, Graceds!

          • Proponent

            scuz norkan: “With body language being at over 55% of the 3 tools used for interpreting our communication.. .”

            That is misleading and not quite true.

            If mentioning the 55/38/7 numbers, one should clearly state that this applies to certain situations and importantly, it should not be used as a deciding factor to try and understand the situation. A proper analysis needs to occur to fully grasp what the person’s current emotions are at that moment.

          • suz norkan

            You can take your derailing train wreck up with these people!

            http://www.bodylanguageexpert.co.uk/communication-what-percentage-body-language.html

            MY comment backed Graced’s reply to Dorit, that ANY unbiased individual can absolutely ascertain that pan was being coached.

            I vote we call in an expert lip reader for a precise analysis! 😉

            Try to comprehend the words within the CONTEXT of the communication, parrot Pro!

          • Proponent

            Sorry, you are incorrect as usual.

            Once more for the reading impaired..

            “If mentioning the 55/38/7 numbers, one should clearly state that this
            applies to certain situations and importantly, it should not be used as a deciding factor to try and understand the situation.”

            That said..

            You are still persona non grata in my book, scuz.

          • suz norkan

            Your erroneous ‘off topic’ ad homming is showing A -gain! [sic]

            The current ‘sub-subject’ was pan being coached by pharma lobbyists during the senate hearings.

            And stop stealing my shtick, PARROT pro!

          • Proponent

            No.. the current ‘sub-subject’.. brought up by you, scuz, was the following in your post..

            scuz norkan: “I saw a nervous and CONFUSED individual looking to the lobbyists for answers on how to reply!

            Only someone who is insincere or imperceptive would conclude anything else after studying the video, Graceds!”

            … …

            Now that this has been clarified..

            Still.. persona non grata in my book, scuz,

          • suz norkan

            Nope, PARROT breath!

            See several comments between Graceds and Dorit on the actions of pan in the video; what is legal to be communicated by lobbyists during such hearings, and whether pan was being coached or not.

            You don’t have the cognition to ‘clarify’ anything, and I’m sure you had to look up my line to Borings, [persona non grata]!

            C’est la vie! Once a witless PARROT, always a witless PARROT, PARROT pro! 😉

          • Proponent

            scuz norkan: “I vote we call in an expert lip reader for a precise analysis!”

            “CONCLUSIONS

            Qualitatively, the scores reflect the difficulty of lip reading in an open-set sentence recognition task. Mean-word-recognition accuracy scores were barely greater than 10% correct. Further, any individual who achieved a CUNY lip-reading score of 30% correct is considered an outlier, giving them a T-score of nearly 80—three times the standard deviation from the mean. A lip-reading recognition accuracy score of 45% correct places an individual 5 standard deviations above the mean.”

            (Source: Some normative data on lip-reading skills (L) )

            Persona non grata troll.. has failed … a -gain.

          • suz norkan

            Ad homming, trolling, spamming and PARROTING Proponent has created yet another derailing train wreck; being too incognizant to keep up in common conversation.

            And now because you seem to be a pesky little bug, like one that I’d previously deemed ‘persona non grata’, which you now ALSO witlessly parrot, I shall call you my parrota non grata!

            Har d har! You surely seem to want to revisit your recent parody stupidity, parrota non grata! Bwa haha! 😉

          • Proponent

            Sure.. trollalota non grata.

            Either/or.. still.. persona non grata, scuz.

          • suz norkan

            Nah! Borings remains ‘persona non grata’ to suz, which is where you pilfered your present, PARROTED posts.

            Further, please take some remedial reading classes before attempting to contend with the grownups!

            You’re just FLOUNCY parrota non grata, parrot Pro! Har d har! 😉

          • Sia

            Given the history of one particular luminary, it is entirely reasonable to be nervous.

          • suz norkan

            Grasshopper, it’s crystal clear that you don’t have a CLUE! Ask mommy to ‘splain it to you! 😉

          • Sigh. Yes, reread what I wrote.

          • Verna Lang

            Cuba has a 99% vaccination rate and plenty of research dedicated to vaccines. Who would have thought that Fidel Castro was such a capitalist in thrall to pharmaceutical companies? By your own arguments, money must be the only deciding factor behind vaccinations.

          • Mike Stevens

            But there doesn’t seem to be any money to follow, Jeffry.

            You do seem to be obsessed with trying to discredit Dorit on extremely flimsy grounds regarding conflict of interest.

            Maybe that is because you cannot successfully argue against the content of her posts?

          • Watson

            Ha.

            I’ve never seen this lying Aufderheide fraud argue anything successfully, even in the relative safety of his own website.

          • Katia

            Which is?

          • Watson

            He owns Vactruth com

          • Katia

            Oh, God.

          • Graceds

            Troll.

          • Watson

            I live in Colorado, Graceds. I’m very familiar with Mr. Aufderheide.

            Meet Jeffry John Aufderheide, a man who lies about his Navy career and claims vaccines contain aborted fetuses and mouse brains. Oh, and he’s a leader of the anti-vaxx movement.

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/06/the-navy-fraud-fronting-the-anti-vaxxer-movement.html

          • ione murphy

            “claims vaccines contain mouse brains” I think we can dismiss anything else you rant about

            Mouse brain-derived Japanese encephalitis vaccine

            Extract from report of GACVS meeting of 9-10 June 2005, published in the WHO Weekly Epidemiological Record on 15 July 2005

            The Committee considered the decision taken by the Government of Japan on 30 May 2005 to suspend routine vaccination with the mouse brain-derived Japanese encephalitis (JE) vaccine currently used in Japan.3 This decision followed a review by the Japanese national advisory committee on vaccine adverse events of a single case of acute disseminated encephalomyelitis following JE vaccination and the national committee’s conclusion that it could not rule out a causal link with the vaccine”..http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/japanese_encephalitis/mouse_brain_derived/June_2005/en/.

          • Watson

            Another troll who uses the “imperial we.” The quote is copied from the article I linked.

          • ione murphy

            So you are quoting from a source that doesn’t know what the hell they are talking about. Nothing unusual about that. Carry on.

          • Watson

            The Daily Beast is not the Daily Caller. You seem to have the two confused.

            If there was an error in the article, Mr. Aufderheide should demand a retraction. It’s clearly defamatory. Along with Jeffry’s mouse brains claim, the author states as fact that Aufderheide lies about his Navy career.

            Mr. Aufderheide cannot demand a retraction, though, because every word in the article is true.

          • There isn’t?

            I would be curious to see how you know this.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Doris posts are mere cockatooing of canned slogans handed over to her by her pharma sponsors.

          • Mike Stevens

            Pharma shill gambit.
            Boring, boring.
            The first resort of the intellectually vacuous, the malignantly stupid, and those who can’t argue the science.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Conflict of interests is not flimsy grounds, let alone “extreme” flimsy. Your posts amount to slogans and chatter.

          • Proponent

            Jeffry John Aufderheide: “Richard Pan has also received considerable financial contributions from pharmaceutical companies.”

            You’ve not stated any source or sources, Jeffy.

            Allow me.. and let’s have a look at the total contributions made to Dr. Richard Pan.. which, are a matter of public record..

            In-State …………………………… $1,102,612.01
            Out-Of-State ……………………. $258,855.51
            Unknown State …………………. $0.00
            Party Committee ………………. $0.00
            Leadership Committee ………. $0.00
            Personal Funds ………………… $6,750.00
            Individual Contributions ……… $164,292.39
            Unitemized ………………………. $6,921.35
            Public Funding ………………….. $0.00
            Non-Contribution ……………….. $0.00
            Institutions and Companies …. $0.00
            Other ……………………………….. $276,639.59

            Total Contributions ………………1268

            Total ………………………………… $1,361,467.52

            (Source: Vote Smart | Richard Pan’s Campaign Finances )

            Oops..

            … …

            Adding in..

            Have you looked into the campaign contributions to those that dissented and voted ‘nay’ against SB277, Jeffy?

            Didn’t think so..

            Joel Anderson Republican (Elected 2010), Senate District 38
            California Medical Association … $15,700

            “California Medical Association is an advocacy organization that represents more than 40,000 California physicians.

            Dedicated to the health of Californians, CMA is active in the legal, legislative, reimbursement and regulatory areas on behalf of California physicians and their patients.”

            Guess what ran on the CMA website during the month of August?

            “Each year in August, National Immunization Awareness Month provides an opportunity for providers to highlight the value of immunization across all ages. Activities focus on encouraging people to protect their health by being vaccinated against infectious diseases.

            The National Public Health Information Coalition has developed, in collaboration with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Immunization Awareness Month Communication Toolkits to help providers communicate with their patients about the importance of vaccination.”

            (Source: CMA | News | “August is National Immunization Awareness Month” )

            Oops.. again.

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps you should track down my response to this accusation elsewhere (look at my profile).
            I calculated that for every 1% increase in global GSK vaccine revenue that Dorit can “engineer” through her posts, her family stands to make $15 for every $10,000 of stock they hold.

            Now that’s a real powerful conflict of interest, huh?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Numbers pulled out of your ass vs. conflict of interest.

          • Mike Stevens

            Realistic numbers, but clearly not to your liking.

          • Watson

            Was it money that influenced you to lie about your career in the Navy, Mr. Aufderheide?

            The Navy Fraud Fronting the Anti-Vaxxer Movement
            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/06/the-navy-fraud-fronting-the-anti-vaxxer-movement.html

            As websites inflating the dangers of vaccines go, VacTruth com is a beautifully built disaster, one that’s won a seal of approval from 75,000 followers and mommy bloggers nationwide.

            But the 37-year-old Coloradoan behind it, Jeffry John Aufderheide, isn’t what his glossy website would have you believe. Vaccines just one of the many conspiracies in his rolodex—he’s also a 9/11 truther, gun-rights fanatic, and Infowars darling. Oh, and he lies about his time in the Navy.

            Were you a Navy SEAL, a rescue swimmer with top secret clearance, or actually just a low level IT guy. Perceptions are everything.

          • Perhaps you can be more specific as to what I allegedly have lied about regarding my time in the military? Thanks.

          • Watson

            The Navy Fraud Fronting the Anti-Vaxxer Movement
            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/06/the-navy-fraud-fronting-the-anti-vaxxer-movement.html

            “Jeffry John Aufderheide, isn’t what his glossy website would have you believe. Vaccines just one of the many conspiracies in his rolodex—he’s also a 9/11 truther, gun-rights fanatic, and Infowars darling. Oh, and he lies about his time in the Navy.

            “The Navy discredited Aufderheide’s claim that he served as a ‘rescue swimmer,’ stating that he actually served four years as an Information Systems Technician, Third Class. ‘This is all the releasable information we have,’ Sharon Anderson, the Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs, told The Daily Beast in an email. According to the job description on the organization’s website, Aufderheide’s role closely resembled that of an IT guy, one who acted as ‘admin on mainframe computers’ and ‘management’ on internal databases. A necessary position, it’s less the life-saving Navy SEAL that ‘rescue swimmer’ with ‘top secret clearance’ implies.”

            The Daily Beast published this on February 06, 2015.

          • As I mentioned below, you can ask the alleged reporter, who I declined to interview with, if she has access to validate clearances. Normally there is a process to follow and access (FSO / SO) required to confirm.

            https://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf
            https://www.navycs.com/navy-jobs/information-systems.html

            Regarding being a rescue swimmer. I graduated from Surface Rescue Swimmer School in Jacksonville, FL in 1997.

            You can see from the article she spoke with a public affairs officer and not an FSO/SO. I’m sure you can appreciate the difference. Additionally, I would also like you to provide the time and place I ever referenced Navy SEAL being any part of my job description while I served. Thanks.

          • Watson

            In the alternative, if you think The Daily Beast erred, you could ask the publisher to remove or correct their report.

            The author outright calls you a liar and a phony, someone lacking any medical credentials or credibility who makes his living presenting false information in a way it appears factual, and exploiting the inexperience of his readers.

            It’s clearly defamatory, if wrong.

          • Again, if you can please provide where I have falsified my military experience, outside of the Daily Beast, I really would appreciate your source.

            They do not have access to my background information, unless they are collaborating with the Chinese government and/or have access to classified documents.

            http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cybersecurity-cyberattack-idUSKCN0T62K420151117

          • Justthefacts

            The Navy discredited Aufderheide’s claim that he served as a “rescue swimmer,” stating that he actually served four years as an Information Systems Technician, Third Class. “This is all the releasable information we have,” Sharon Anderson, the Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs, told The Daily Beast in an email. According to the job description on the organization’s website, Aufderheide’s role closely resembled that of an IT guy, one who acted as “admin on mainframe computers” and “management” on internal databases. A necessary position, it’s less the life-saving Navy SEAL that “rescue swimmer” with “top secret clearance” implies

            So Sharon Anderson, the Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs,
            says you are a liar and she doesn’t work for the Daily Beast.

          • She said that? You must have access to the email, then. Fascinating.

          • Justthefacts

            The daily beast cited that source. Go sue them if it’s false. None of us will be holding or breath waiting for that to happen.

            We have seen your site. You have no problem lying.

          • And you are saying the Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs called me a liar?

          • Justthefacts

            The Daily Beast said that the Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs called you a liar. I just know that you you lie about so many things on your site, it’s likely that it’s true.

            Get you lawyer and go set that right. Be my guest!

          • Watson

            Better yet, since, in the past 9 months you have taken no action correct the statements in The Daily Beast article and cannot, let’s accept these as statements of fact:

            “Meet Jeffry John Aufderheide, a man who lies about his Navy career…”

            “Vaccines just one of the many conspiracies in his rolodex—he’s also a 9/11 truther, gun-rights fanatic, and Infowars darling. Oh, and he lies about his time in the Navy.”

            “The Navy discredited Aufderheide’s claim that he served as a ‘rescue swimmer,’ stating that he actually served four years as an Information Systems Technician, Third Class.”

            You lied about your military service. That’s a fact, Mr. Aufderheide. A reasonable person might ask, what else will you lie about?

          • I served my country with honor. I haven’t lied about my military service at all. You will likely accept any statement the Daily Beast puts out as fact, as long as you agree with it.

          • Watson

            You received an honorable discharge; that much is true.

            The author was quite fair with you, much more than I would have been.

          • ione murphy

            You know what’s funny about this? I not too long ago posted something that came from that same newspaper, and was ridiculed for using a tabloid rag as my source of evidence.

          • Argus

            Hi Jeffy,
            Please tell us about how you profit from that little website you run.
            And while you are at it, why don’t you clear up those questions about whether your claims to have been a certified rescue swimmer in the Navy with top secret clearance are true? Your silence on this matter has been telling.

          • Hi Greg,

            I’m really glad you asked.

            You can ask the alleged reporter, who I declined to interview with, if she has access to validate clearances. Normally there is a process to follow and access (FSO / SO) required to confirm.

            https://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

            https://www.navycs.com/navy-jobs/information-systems.html

            Regarding being a rescue swimmer. I graduated from Surface Rescue Swimmer School in Jacksonville, FL in 1997.

          • Argus

            And what grade did you pass? CAT I, CAT II, or Aviation SAR?

          • Greg,

            As I stated above, I was a Surface Rescue Swimmer. CAT I is passing the initial class and CAT II is for, as it states in the description, anyone who was not at sea for a year (such as a recruiter).

            I was assigned to a ship, not an air squadron.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            California’s Immunization Coalition are psychopaths asking to inject babies with mercury. As the letter below proves, they are more concerned about the industry’s problems to sell product than the actual health needs of Californian kids.

            http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=29587
            ————————————————

            Dear Secretary Dooley:

            Re: Request for temporary exemption for use of thimerosal-containing vaccine

            Due to delays in the delivery of preservative-free flu vaccine across the U.S., we request a temporary exemption be granted to allow health care providers in California to administer thimerosal-containing vaccine to children under three years of age and pregnant women.

            The United States is experiencing a national shortage of Fluzone pediatric pre-filled syringes, manufactured by Sanofi Pasteur. This is the only preservative-free injectable vaccine that can be administered to children ages 6-35 months under California law (California Health and Safety Code Section 124172 ). Additionally the delivery of FluMist, the live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV) that is administered intranasally, is also delayed throughout the country. FluMist has no preservative and can be administered to a two-year old child if there are no contraindications. The manufacturer reports that the vaccine is delayed due to production and shipping issues…

            Kris E. Calvin
            Executive Director
            American Academy of Pediatrics CA

            Susan Hogeland, CAE
            Executive Vice President
            California Academy of Family Physicians

            Erika Jenssen, MPH
            President
            California Immunization Coalition

          • Dorit Reiss

            Since the tiny amounts of thimerosal in vaccines were studied and not shown harmful, and since influenza is dangerous to pregnant women and young babies, the CIC and other organizations are asking the secretary to waive the restriction on providing influenza vaccines with thimerosal until the shortage of no-thimerosal vaccines is done. This will allow pregnant women who want to protect themselves against a dangerous disease and parents who want to protect their young children against it to do so, rather than be denied because of a shortage.

            I’m sorry you see it as a negative thing that these organizations are acting to provide access to those who want it to vaccines against influenza. I think it’s a good thing.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Another contradiction: thimerosal is “safe mercury” but, contrary other adjuvants, it has been eliminated in vaccines as a “precautionary measure” (admission of risk) http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/

            Now here comes the California Immunization Coalition asking to f..k precautionary measures and pump kids with anything the industry has in stock and could not sell. Helping the kids or the industry?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…I’m sorry you see it as a negative thing that these organizations are acting to provide access to those who want it to vaccines against influenza. I think it’s a good thing.

            This is the real story behnd influenza vaccines:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

            Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2010

            “The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies.”

            So your “benefactors of children” are pushing unproven, fraudulent flu vaccines in their most toxic variety and doing it against all consensual precautionary principles. We should all kiss their as…es for that?

      • Mike Stevens

        So a provaccine organisation supported vaccination and vaccination legislation…..Shock! Horror!

        ….So aorry, I had to sit down there for a moment, I felt so faint.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          If you’re not horrified by forcing of risky medical procedures upon healthy children then you must be a psychopathy case.

          • Mike Stevens

            I absolutely am horrified by people conducting unnecessary, high risk procedures on children.
            That’s why I totally abhor what Wakefield did to those poor autistic kids, who had to undergo general anaesthesia, lumbar punctures and total colonoscopies all in the name of his “research”.

            However, regarding the “procedure” of vaccination, I am in favour, since the health benefits greatly exceed the possible harm.

          • ione murphy

            On March 10, 2004, The Alliance for Human Research Protection (AHRP) filed a complaint with the FDA and the federal Office of Human Research Protection. That complaint prompted two separate investigations by the FDA and AHRP, plus articles in the New York Post and a BBC documentary. The complaint prompted an Associated Press (AP) investigation into over four dozen studies being conducted in at least seven states. In Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, New York, North Carolina, Colorado and Texas, the investigation found that 13,878 children had been enrolled in pediatric AIDS studies funded by the government since the late 1980s. source; Sourcewatch org foster child drug trials

            “The role of pharmaceutical companies came up at a hearing convened by the Committee on General Welfare of the New York City Council in which the commissioner of NYC’s Administration of Chilren’s Services (ACS) was grilled about the unethical drug experiments that were conducted on at least 645 infants and children who were under the guardianship of ACS.

            The children were exposed to experimental AIDS drugs and vaccines in Phase I and Phase II trials sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, often in concert with drug manufacturers. All institutions and government agencies involved have been unforthcoming about the trials and the fate of the children”.

            One after another Council member expressed his disgust with “the moral turpitude of pharmaceutical companies” whose involvement in the trials raises red flags about the financial underpinnings of the trials.”

          • ione murphy

            Dr. Krugman’s career came under a shadow in the late 1960’s after accusations that he had used retarded children at the Willowbrook State School on Staten Island as human guinea pigs for his hepatitis vaccine research.
            From 1958 to 1964 feces was taken from children who had Hepatitis, put in milkshakes and fed to newly admitted children for experimentation purposes
            . http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2011/10/24/willowbrook-how-the-government-abused-children-with-special-needs/

            On Oct. 4, 1960, The Times reported that a vaccine developed by Dr. John F. Enders of Harvard and colleagues, using the measles virus itself, was being tested in New York City. With what today would appear as serene indifference, the reporter wrote that it was being given to 1,500 “retarded children” at the Willowbrook School on Staten Island.”..http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/health/05first.html?_r=0

          • Mike Stevens

            Presumably giving kids hepatitis is not a harmful thing, though?
            But, but…. I thought that according to antivax folklore, all these diseases are “harmless”, and so therefore not worth preventing through vaccination.
            Or have you been misdirecting us all over these last 5 years or so?

          • ione murphy

            You seem to enjoy hearing about children being used for unethical medical experiments Mike. Why don’t you crack some jokes for everybody reading about dead babies who were used for vaccine experiments and sewage tanks…I know you will come up with something twisted. Maybe we have uncovered the identify of our mystery commenter who liked to talk about using children for sex and torture

            “Over 2,000 care-home kids were secretly vaccinated against diphtheria in the 1930s in medical trials undertaken by international drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome, Irish media reveal. Among the testing sites was a recently discovered mass grave.

            What I have found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg,” Dwyer told the paper. “The fact that reports of these trials were published in the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners and facilitated by authorities in charge of children’s residential institutions.”

            Following the discovery and reports of medical tests, Irish Premier Enda Kenny ordered ministers to search for further mass baby graves.

            http://rt.com/news/164884-irish-baby-scandal-vaccines/

          • Mike Stevens

            Aren’t your CTRL, C and V keys worn out yet, Ione?
            Or do you get a new keyboard each week from that paycheck you get shilling for BigBabyCoffins?

          • ione murphy

            Enders and Katz approached the Walter E. Fernald State School near Waltham, Massachusetts. Conducting a clinical trial among institutionalized children raised significant ethical questions. Indeed, just 10 years earlier, the Fernald School had permitted nontherapeutic nutritional studies without informing families that their children were being given radioisotopes.10 Given that research ethics in the 1950s remained largely unregulated, some historians have argued that the Nuremberg code’s powerful articulation of informed consent in 1946 had little impact on American research until the 1960s.11

            Although the domestic eradication of measles proved to be more difficult than optimists in the late 1960s predicted, the remarkable safety record of measles vaccine (incorporated into Merck’s MMR combination against measles, mumps, and rubella in 1971) is worth noting. In contrast to whole-cell pertussis and live polio vaccines, which were at the center of highly visible vaccine-safety controversies in the 1970s and 80s, measles vaccine enjoyed wide public acceptance. It figured prominently in the rise of school mandates as a strategy for promoting vaccination.16

            ***Families who declined it did so not so much for reasons of safety than questioning the clinical severity of measles (as was the case, ironically, with David Edmonston’s decision not to vaccinate his own son).17***

            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/128/3/435.full

          • Mike Stevens

            Tut tut tut, Ione, caught lying again…..

            Such selective “cherry picking”, trying (and failing yet again) to make vaccines seem to be some monstrous, evil curse forced upon unsuspecting kids.

            Here is the next sentence from the article you deliberately selectively quoted:
            “In this light, it is notable that Katz explained the trial in person to every parent, and the ensuing article clearly stated that no child was given the vaccine without written parental consent.”
            This confirming the ethical correctness of these measles vaccine studies.

            However, thanks Ione for including their conclusion:
            “the remarkable safety record of measles vaccine
            (incorporated into Merck’s MMR combination against measles, mumps, and rubella in 1971) is worth noting.”

            And BTW, thanks for the fascinating reference to early measles vaccine trials – quite enlightening, and very revealing as to the marvellous success of measles vaccination!

          • ione murphy

            I didn’t know you were a fan of history Mike. Here is some more for you then…

            “The largest contributor to the fund to elect Hitler in 1933 was I.G. Farben, which committed itself for 80 percent of the total. IG Farben included BASF, Bayer, Hoechst,(now Sanofi-Aventis.) and other German chemical and pharmaceutical companies.

            As documents show, IG Farben was intimately involved with the human experimental atrocities committed by Mengele at Auschwitz.

            all IG Farben pharmaceuticals were marketed under the Bayer trademark.

            Throughout the Nazi era, Bayer was the control center for IG Farben human experiments. And on February 17, 1999, a lawsuit was filed in U.S. District on behalf of Eva Mozes Kor one of 180 surviving twin children (out of 1,500) who had been subjected to medical experiments at Auschwitz. The suit charged Bayer, of collaborating with Dr. Josef Mengele (the “Angel of Death”) to commit medical atrocities for profit. Eventually the case was settled out of court.

            The correspondence between BAYER and the Auschwitz concentration camp gruesomely documented experiments on humans. BAYER put an order for 150 women, necessary for new experiments. They were deemed as “sufficient” despite “their miserable state of health” after “delivery”. There it meant, “the experiment have been carried out. All test objects are dead. We would like to inform you that we will be needing a new delivery shortly.”

            Between 1933 and 1945, I.G. Farben played a central role in the Nazi economy. During World War II, the company manufactured poison gas, Zyklon B, used at extermination camps and employed forced and slave labor. Several company directors and senior managers were tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

            I.G. Farben Trial in Nuremberg (1947/48) In late July 1948, the sentence was pronounced: 10 of the defendants were acquitted of all charges, and 13 were sentenced to prison terms, none exceeding eight years. In 1951, the last of the men convicted were pardoned and released from prison. IG Farben board member, Fritz ter Meer became the chairman of the board for BAYER in 1956. He said during the Nuremberg trials on the topic of human experiments that “concentration camp prisoners were not subjected to exceptional suffering, because they would have been killed anyway”.

            In its verdict, the court concluded: “The evidence does not justify the conclusion that the supervisory board or the defendants Mann,(Bayer) Hörlein (BASF), or Wurster (Hoechst) as its members had a decisive influence on the business policies of DEGESCH or prosecutable knowledge of the intended purpose of its products. The supervisory board seldom met and the reports made to the supervisory board members did not contain much factual information In either the scale of production nor the fact that large quantities were shipped to concentration camps, seen alone, is sufficient to conclude that the persons who had knowledge of these facts must also have known of the criminal purpose to which the gas [Zyklon B] was put.”

            In the sixth trial subsequent to the Trial of the Major War Criminals in Nuremberg (Case VI), starting in May 1947, 24 I.G. Farben executives were arraigned before an American military tribunal, charged with planning and preparation of wars of aggression, plundering and spoliation of annexed and occupied countries, and participation in the slave labor program and policy of genocide of the National Socialist regime. During the proceedings, the prosecution and the defense exhibited countless numbers of documents, including photos of the construction site annotated by the factory manager of I.G. Auschwitz, Walther Dürrfeld. Numerous witnesses were heard, including survivors of the Buna/Monowitz concentration camp and former British prisoners of war from I.G. Auschwitz.

            In late July 1948, the sentence was pronounced: 10 of the defendants were acquitted of all charges, and 13 were sentenced to prison terms, none exceeding eight years. In 1951, the last of the men convicted were pardoned and released from prison. IG Farben board member, Fritz ter Meer became the chairman of the board for BAYER in 1956. He said during the Nuremberg trials on the topic of human experiments that “concentration camp prisoners were not subjected to exceptional suffering, because they would have been killed anyway”.

            Eleven of the IG Farben managers were set free. Six received prison sentences from 18 months to 3 years. Ter Meer received a 7 year sentence, while Ambros and Dürrfeld received eight years. All those convicted were released from prison early. Some were included in the succeeding management team of the IG Farben Cartel.

            Bayer, BASF and Hoechst considered themselves to be free of any legal obligations arising from I.G.’s history. Bayer, BASF and Hoechst rejected all compensation demands by former forced laborers until the late 1990s. They argued that the decartelization of I.G. Farben had created “three organizationally and completely new and independent companies that bore “no responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi terror against forced laborers.” But these were the same three companies that had initiated the creation of the I.G. Farbin.

            Hoechst AG merged in 1999 with Rhône-Poulenc to form the pharmaceuticals giant Aventis S.A., spinning off its remaining chemicals activities to the new Celanese AG. Aventis merged in 2004 with Sanofi-Synthélabo to form Sanofi-Aventis.”

          • ione murphy

            And what has Bayer been up to since their leader died?

            “In 2006 it was revealed that Bayer Corporation had discovered that their injection drug, which was used by hemophiliacs, was contaminated with the HIV virus. Internal documents prove that after they knew the drug was contaminated, and they took it off the U.S. market, they dumped it in Europe, Asia and South America, knowingly exposing thousands, most of them children, to the live HIV virus. Government officials in France went to prison for allowing the drug to be distributed. The documents show that the FDA colluded with Bayer to cover-up the scandal and allowed the deadly drug to be distributed globally. No Bayer executives ever faced arrest or prosecution in the United States.

            Thousands of hemophiliacs filed a class-action lawsuit a against Bayer Corp, Baxter Healthcare Corp., and several other companies, claiming they knowingly sold blood contaminated with HIV and hepatitis C. Thousands of hemophiliacs have unnecessarily died from AIDS and many thousands more are infected with HIV or hepatitis C, many of them children.”

            Bayer Admits It Paid “Millions” in HIV Infection Cases — Just Not in English
            http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bayer-admits-it-paid-millions-in-hiv-infection-cases-just-not-in-english/

            Yaz Stroke, Heart Attack Settlement to Result in Payment of Another $56.9M August 5, 2015
            Bayer Healthcare has agreed to pay about $57 million to settle Yaz lawsuits and Yasmin lawsuits involving arterial thromboembolism (ATE) injuries, such as strokes and heart attacks, potentially resolving about 1,200 of the remaining cases over the controversial birth control pills. –
            See more at: http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/yaz-ate-settlement-85557/#sthash.P0c5IsRX.dpuf

            Yaz Settlements for Pulmonary Embolism, DVT May Top $1.5 Billion – See more at: http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/bayer-settled-yaz-yasmin-lawsuits-36353/#sthash.WvjZNhIm.dpuf

          • Mike Stevens

            TL;DR beyond the second line.
            And to answer your question, no, I am not a fan of your Godwinning, revisionist, copy-pasta, antivax vomit, Ione.

            PS: I see you have decided to furiously handwave and goal-post shift once again.
            Why was that? Couldn’t explain your lies about the measles vaccine study consent?

      • ione murphy

        The editor of this paper, has written other articles as biased and uninformed as this one. He clearly enjoys stirring up the hornets nest, maybe just for the extra publicity. .. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/05/07/aurora-sentinel-editor-gets-death-threats-after-anti-nra-column/

    • Vacunas Autismo

      Forcing invasive treatments on healthy people in the absence of an immediate and identified epidemic threat will always be illegal. The lower laws of these petty pharma-paid politicians are written on toilet paper and cannot be enforced.

      • Dorit Reiss

        Actually, every state and federal court looking at the issue upheld school immunization requirements. The fact that they protect two valuable interests – a child’s right to health and the public health – gives them a very compelling basis.

        • Tannim

          Pierce vs. Society of Sisters is controlling law, not those lower court errors.

          Try again. You just keep digging the hole deeper. You might hit China someday.

          • Dorit Reiss

            To remind you, around the same time as Pierce the Supreme Court upheld school immunization requirements in Zucht v. King, and reaffirmed that in Prince v. Massachusetts. These state and federal courts are following Supreme Court precedent as well as sound public policy.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          Public health forceful measures are only applicable in emergency situations, which is not the case for routine vaccines. Kids that are not vaccinated have the same right to education as those who are, as is recognized in most of the civilized world.

          • Katia

            “Public health forceful measures are only applicable in emergency situations, which is not the case for routine vaccines. ”

            Wrong! Jacobson vs Massachusetts has been used to support mandatory immunizations for school attendance.
            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1508701?query=TOC&&
            “In 1890, the Supreme Court of California upheld a state law requiring vaccination to attend school (Abeel v. Clark). Fifteen years later in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a claim that a Massachusetts vaccination mandate not linked to school entry violated the constitutional right to due process of law. Later, the Court applied Jacobson in Zucht v. King (1922) to reject a challenge to school-entry mandates in Texas.”

          • Vacunas Autismo

            1890? Truly you live under modern laws. What’s next, Sharia law?

          • Katia

            It hasn’t been overturned, jag!

          • Graceds

            Jagette.

          • Katia

            Not a term used in Pittsburgh, where the word originates.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagoff

          • Graceds

            🙂

          • Graceds

            Jacobsen vs Massachusetts supported the decision to force sterilize.
            Not a sterling association.

          • Katia

            That is the nuttiest thing you’ve ever said Grace. Jacobson v Mass is about vaccination!

            https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/case.html

          • Graceds

            Prophetically, in 1927, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr. invoked the Jacobson v. Massachusetts “greater good” utilitarian decision to justify using the heel of the boot of the State to force the sterilization of a young Virginia woman, Carrie Buck, who doctors and social workers incorrectly judged to be mentally retarded like they said her mother was.16 In a chilling statement endorsing eugenics,17 Holmes revealed the morally corrupt core of utilitarianism that still props up mandatory vaccination laws in the U.S.

            Pointing to the Jacobson vs. Massachusetts decision, Holmes declared that the state of Virginia could force Carrie Buck to be sterilized to protect society from mentally retarded people. Coldly, Holmes proclaimed, “three generations of imbeciles are enough” and “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the fallopian tubes.”18

            “The 1905 U.S. Supreme Court majority made fundamental scientific and ethical errors in their ruling in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. It is clear that medical doctors cannot predict ahead of time who will be injured or die from vaccination and that is a scientific fact.19 20”
            http://www.thevaccinereaction.org/2015/12/jacobson-v-massachusetts-state-police-powers-affirmed/

          • Katia

            Er, Jacobson v Mass was in 1905. So 22 years later a DIFFERENT Supreme Court used to justify a DIFFERENT case? Big Whoop, Grace.

          • sabelmouse

            what does ”jag” mean?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            This is what the law looks like in a country that doesn’t allow industrial lobbies to legislate:

            Daycare centres cannot refuse to accept unvaccinated children: minister. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/04/daycare_cannot_refuse_to_accep/

          • Dorit Reiss

            And quoted affirmatively in Prince v. Massachusetts in 1944.

          • “Public health forceful measures are only applicable in emergency situations, which is not the case for routine vaccines.”

            No such measures are being proposed here. Following California’s lead would mean making vaccination a prerequisite to public school attendance; parents can homeschool if they like. No one is forcibly vaccinating anyone.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The laws falsely assume unvaccinated kids are infectious, then impose a discrimination measure based on said false assumption. On the same breath, the law assumes vaccines are effective, in which case vaccinated kids would be protected regardless of how many unvaxed kids are in the class. It’s the law by imbeciles that had no shame in contradicting themselves if there’s money to be made.

          • The law does not assume either of those things. It assumes, consistent with the consensus of actual medical experts, that unvaccinated people are more likely to contract vaccine-preventable diseases. People with vaccine-preventable diseases are infectious, not just unvaccinated people generally.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The vaccinated can be very infectious carriers, for example, the OPV amounts to a forced infection and implants a virus where there might have been none to begin with. The dyphthera and tetanus vaccines don’t prevent infections because they target a toxin, not the infectious agent, turning the vaccinated into unwitting spreaders of the microbes.

            The bottom line is: unvaccinated kids pose no risk to vaccinated kids. It’s rather the other way around.

            The grounds for banning unvaccinated kids from school are bogus and contrary to consensual science. This is acknowledged by European governments less influenced in their lawmaking by industrial lobbies, such as Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. where no one can be banned from schools on vaccination grounds.

          • OPV hasn’t been used in the United States in about two decades; if you’re reaching for that in order to complain about proposed Colorado legislation, then neither one of us thinks you have a leg to stand on.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            There are other live vaccines that also amount to force infections actually in use in the USA.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            There are other live vaccines that also amount to force infections actually in use in the USA.

            http://www.vaccines.gov/more_info/types/#live

            “…an attenuated microbe in the vaccine could revert to a virulent form and cause disease”

            Nobody can be legally forced to expose their kids to this.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            There are many other live vaccines in the US schedule that amount to forced infection of kids:

            http://www.vaccines.gov/more_info/types/

            “…an attenuated microbe in the vaccine could revert to a virulent form and cause disease”

            Exposing healthy kids to a certain infection is child abuse, pure and simple.

          • There are very few live vaccines used in the United States, and none that present a serious risk of shedding. The Immune Deficiency Foundation specifically recommends that parents not avoid vaccination other than the OPV virus, which as noted is not used in this country anyway.

            I hope that readers obseve the rapid shift in your arguments: you will be forcibly vaccinated (false), the law assumes unvaccinated kids are infectious (false and irrelevant), vaccinated people are carriers of disease (false), and now vaccines are “certain infection.” All of your talking points are wrong, and yet you don’t blink an eye when that’s pointed out. You just shift to a new talking point.

            This is ideology, not reasoning. Anti-vax scaremongerers have a belief that vaccines are bad and scary, and search endlessly for facts that support that belief. When they can’t find one, they invent one. Anything to support the myth that vaccines are bad and scary.

            Please don’t let urban legends scare you out of taking the best possible care of your child. Vaccines save lives. They are not a giant conspiracy. That’s why actual doctors recommend vaccines and vaccinate their own children.

          • jenny

            IPV or OPV is used in the USA. In 2006 my child received it. I am looking at his immunization schedule as I type this out. Poliomyelitis. Poliometitis. He actually had three 12/4/2006. 3/6/2007 5/10/2007. Or perhaps the University of Utah where he received his vaccinations wrote it down incorrectly. The immunization record sheet that goes along with him wherever he goes has it on it so I’m wondering why you would say that they don’t use it in the United States anymore when clearly they do they did on my child is he just the only one thee anomaly?

          • Dorit Reiss

            Public health measures are also used to prevent emergency situations and harms, actually.

            It’s a shame that kids whose parents refuse to protect against diseases – vaccine-deprived kids – may also find their educational opportunities limited because of their parents’ mistaken choice. However, that’s a balance between actually forcing vaccines and allowing the non-vaccinating parents to force the risk they impose on their own children on the child’s classmate. The state could require vaccination and criminally penalize the non-vaccinating parents. But states are not comfortable going that far. So they allow parents not to vaccinate – and limit the ability of those parents to export the risk to the rest of the community.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Assuming vaccines are effective, protection only happens in the presence of an identified, concrete and measurable epidemc threat. In the absence of said threat, the only risk to a kid’s health is the vaccine itself.

          • Dorit Reiss

            No. Protection happens any time there’s exposure to the disease. There doesn’t have to be an epidemic threat. If a child is exposed to an infected traveler, or to an infected individual that’s not a traveler, or – like in the San Diego 2008 outbreak, an unvaccinated child is taken abroad to where measles is endemic (in that case Europe), a child can be infected.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Infected travellers are an extremely rare occurrence. You can’t base public health interventions on rare occurrences, let alone force them, yet this is what vaccine policy is about. 99% of kids are never exposed and get vaccinated for nothing, their only of risk being the vaccine itself.

        • Graceds

          No reason to keep a healthy child out of school.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Once an unvaccinated child is exposed to the disease – for example, if her parents take her to Europe where measles is endemic, or if rates drop in the school and herd immunity no longer protects her from her parents’ error – she is likely to no longer be healthy.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Always blaming foreigners. Measles is a mild disease. Most cases of (rare) measles deaths happen among previously vaccinated adults. Herd immunity cannot exist unless 95% of the population are immune, but since most vaccine-induced antibodies (assuming they’re protective, which remains unproven) wane in anything from 2 to 10 years, by the age of 30 no adult remains immune. Herd Immunity is another canned slogan with no link to reality.

          • CharlieB1972

            Well then, measles should be raging through the population born between 1963 and 1985, and to a lesser extent, adults born after 1985. But it isn’t. We have a few hundred cases per year, and if the vaccine offered only temporary immunity, we would be having a lot more.

            Why is that? Could it be that the vaccine offers lifetime immunity?

            BTW, measles killed 2.6 million people per year in 1980. Thanks to vaccines, we reduced that below 120,000 in 2014, and that was because of vaccines.

          • Sia

            Yeah but by the time we know your kid’s not healthy, it’s too late.

    • Graceds
      • Sia

        Then either homeschool or get all the vaccines from GSK. Done.

        • Graceds

          Or keep the rights Colorado has now.
          Done and done!

          • Sia

            Wrong – those aren’t rights.

            Federal rule has already … well… ruled on them. What those things Colorado has are?

            They’re state privileges or state entitlements.

            Rights come with these things called Responsibilities.

  • Christopher Hickie

    If vaccination rates do not improve, vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks will continue and also increase. It is a shame that it took the measles outbreak in California to cause a change for the better in California vaccine laws–a shame because parents should realize that vaccines are safe, effective and protect against diseases the maim and kill. Other states with similarly high levels of non-vaccination (such as Colorado, and Arizona, where I live) can either do as California did and eliminate non-medical vaccine exemptions, of they cansuffer more vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks. As a pediatrician practicing where there have been measles and whooping cough outbreaks due to low vaccination rates, thank you for your editorial.

    • Katia

      It seems to always take a crisis. It took the measles epidemic of 1989-91 to get some action going re: immunizations, and it took this outbreak in CA to reignite that.

      One person from Colorado did get measles from exposure at Disney after he returned. He went to some type of medical office (urgent care, ER, I can’t remember what) and a lab while sick and no one else here got it. I think our immunization rates are better than they look on paper. I do hope the legislature does the right thing this time around, as opposed to what they did two years ago, which was to way water down the final bill. It is going to be a little harder to get an exemption this upcoming school year.

      • Verna Lang

        What many people do not know about the Disney outbreak is that it was carried back to Canada by a family that came from a religious community in Quebec that shuns vaccinations. It resulted in over 130 confirmed cases of measles, largely confined to the same unvaccinated religious group. This incident illustrates how mobile an infectious disease can be if vaccinations are avoided by even a small percentage of individuals.

        • kfunk937

          So the US became an exporter to two countries (CA, and Mexico). SMH.

          • Verna Lang

            Probably lucky there weren’t more people visiting Disney from areas in Europe where vaccination rates are low.

        • Graceds

          The Disneyland strain was one circulating in the Philippines.

          • Verna Lang

            Thank you for reinforcing the point that diseases like measles can be spread throughout the globe by passengers on airlines. Large, localized numbers of unvaccinated people make it more likely that disease will find a vulnerable pool of people once an infectious passenger lands.

          • Graceds

            Best hide under your bed, Verna.
            Your afraid of Europeans, afraid of people who haven’t gotten every injection pharma wants to sell, afraid of people who travel, afraid of people with religious objections….

          • Mike Stevens

            I’d imagine Verna isn’t afraid at all, having been vaccinated.
            But like her, I am afraid for the more weak and vulnerable in our society such as the infants too young to be vaccinated, and those who are ill or unable to be vaccinated because of their illness or other treatments.

            But then us provaxers tend to be a thoughtful and caring lot, while you antivaxers are pretty selfish, demonstrating your “I’m all right Jack! Sod the rest of you!” attitude at every turn.

          • Mike P

            May i suggest looking into the intricate properties of breast milk and the passive immunity benefits from naturally acquired measles on your day off. There is natural natal protection to a certain degree in the properties of breast milk. The body is an amazing thing that apparently we as a society have deemed defective; replaced for plastic immunity and health. Are you aware of the importance of the neonatal immune system to remain in an anti-inflammatory state for the first several years? Are you aware of the potent anti-inflammatory properties that breast milk has in order to successfully carry that job out? If so, ask yourself why that could possibly be…

          • Mike Stevens

            “May i suggest looking into the intricate properties of breast milk and
            the passive immunity benefits from naturally acquired measles on your
            day off.”

            That amazing maternal immunity and protective breast milk seems to have resulted in the deaths of millions of kids in continents like Africa (prior to introduction of vaccines).
            I wonder why they are so puny?

          • Katia

            Several years? Surely you jest. Breast milk antibodies are “passive”, meaning the baby’s body doesn’t make them. They come from his/her mother, and they break down quickly. As the child starts taking solids, s/he gets less breast milk, therefore less antibody. In addition, the antibodies mostly remain in the gut. Maternal antibodies from the placenta are gone in about 6 months.
            http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2006/03/tales_from_the_nursery.html
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

          • sabelmouse

            we don’t even know if mikey is fully sapient.

          • Verna Lang

            I pointed out facts about a recent outbreak of measles that could have easily taken the life of someone who is immunocompromised or too young to receive their shots. You interpret that as personal fear. I am old enough to have some scars from the measles I went through as a child. I don’t recommend the experience if it can be avoided. I’m curious, though. Do you often make such leaps in logic totally without supporting evidence?

          • Graceds

            The risks from vaccinations of death, neurological and brain damage, and autoimmune disease are just as real.
            Many more died from the MMR vaccine than from the measles in the US, over the last decade.

          • Mike Stevens

            Many more died from the MMR vaccine than from the measles in the US.

            Firstly, the so called MMR deaths are unverified and unlikely to be causal. Secondly, why do you think there has been only one acute measles death in the last year?

            I’ll tell you why…because thanks to universal vaccination, there were only a few hundred cases of measles nationwide in total, compared to the 3 million cases and 450 deaths that used to happen every year prevaccine.

            You know this, I have discussed this with you many times before, so why you keep misrepresenting the issue is a sign of your calculated malice rather than integrity.

          • Katia

            Lying liars lie lots.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Unverified does not imply unlikely. What’s more, timing has a high weight in the criteria to determine causality.

            Underreporting is a known problem of any passive adverse event reporting system. It is estimated that VAERS only reports 10% of all cases.

            Even in the hypothetical case that there was no underreporting and that only 10% of the cases were causal, we’re still left with more deaths linked to the measles vaccine than are caused by me measles.

            When the remedy is worse than the disease it is time to stop with he remedy.

          • Mike Stevens

            “It is estimated that VAERS only reports 10% of all cases.”
            Can you point to the original scientific publication or evidence for this claim?

            Meanwhile, back at the ranch, analysis of VAERS claims has shown that only 3% are definitively linked to the putative vaccine.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063829

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…analysis of VAERS claims has shown that only 3% are definitively linked to the putative vaccine.”

            By the same logic, all measles deaths in the Western world occur on people that had a previous condition as the real cause of death (and they’re often vaccinated adults). Despite that, the vax-pushers use these deaths to raise alarm and call for forced vaccination.

            Additionally, three points that fly your head:

            1. When that 3% of vaccine damage is equal or larger than the equivalent damage by the infections targeted by the corresponding vaccines, Houston we have a problem!

            2. Vaccine damage is permanent and incurable (paralysis, autoimmune disease) unlike most of the so-called “vaccine preventable diseases” which are curable and mild.

            3. Even if the 3% were far below the level damage caused by the infections targeted by the corresponding vaccines, if such vaccines are proven ineffective (read: flu, mumps, whooping cough) then the risk is also unacceptable.

          • Mike Stevens

            But the risk of damage from the diseases is usually several orders of magnitude higher than the risk of damages from the vaccines.
            That’s the bit you don’t quite grasp, do you.

            Alternateively, you could come up with a disease where the complications of the vaccine are higher than complicationsof the illness….
            What disease will you choose? Rabies? Tetanus? Diphtheria? Measles? HiB? Mumps?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…But the risk of damage from the diseases is usually several orders of magnitude higher than the risk of damages from the vaccines.”

            Back to slogan mode! I have a test for you:

            – Let’s say disease X causes 1 death out of 2 cases (50% mortality rate)

            – Let’s say the vaccine against disease X has 1:1,000,000 (0.0001%) adverse event rate (death and paralysis).

            Question: Would you conclude vaccine X has a positive benefit/risk ratio?

          • Mike Stevens

            Can you name a disease?

          • Sia

            Obviously. 50% death rate from disease rate is magnitudes higher death rate than less than 0.0001% .

            Plus, that’s adverse events so that 0.0001% is an over-count . .

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Wrong! it depends of the incidence of X.

            If the incidence of X is below 1 in 500,000 people then the vaccine causes more damage than the disease.

            Please to expose your ignorance, “epidemiologist” LOL

          • Sia

            Herd immunity is a conditional probability sum to figure it out, you whackaloon.

            Again, I have no desire to freeride on my more responsible neighbours.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Herd immunity.”

            With vax antibodies waning after 2 – 10 ten years (depending on subject and vaccine), by the age of 20 few are still immune in your herd. By the age of 30 nobody is immune (being kind and assuming vax antibodies give protection).

            Therefore “vaccine herd immunity” is a theoretical construct which in practice doesn’t exist.

            In spite of it, the streets aren’t littered with corpses, contrary to the what the apologists of vaccines constantly predict.

            Conclussion: factors other than vaccines are preventing the spreading of infectious disease.

          • Sia

            That’s what boosters are for. Next.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..That’s what boosters are for.”

            And adults are NOT taking.

            Streets should be littered with corpeses according with “herd immunity” theory, so where ae they? You’re a FAIL.

          • Sia

            Just because you don’t understand a theory doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Any theory that makes wrong predictions is wrong.

            Vaccine theory is not “exceptional” as science-illiterate apologists seem to believe.

          • Sia

            That’s for pertussis, diptheria and tetanus.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…That’s for pertussis, diptheria and tetanus.”

            Add polio to your list:

            Persistence of protective antibodies following immunization with OPV.

            Intervention: ≥3-­4 doses of oral poliovirus vaccine

            Low scientific evidence for ≥80% long-­‐term (>5-­10 years) persistence of protective antibodies following ≥3-­4 doses of OPV.

            You’re ignorant and proud of it!

          • Sia

            That’s a series, not boosters.

            OPV isn’t used in America.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…That’s a series, not boosters.”

            Irrelevant in a planet where adults use no freaking boosters.

            “…OPV isn’t used in America..”

            How did I know you wouldn’t even READ the report? LOL!

            look again, sport,

            Persistence of protective antibodies following immunization with IPV.

            (Table III2))
            Intervention: ≥3-­4 doses of inactivated poliovirus vaccine

            Low scientific evidence for ≥80% long-­‐term (>5-­10 years) persistence of protective antibodies following ≥3-­4 doses of IPV.

            You dig wallowing in your own ignorance, don’t you?

          • Sia

            Okay, I should have said not routinely used in America.

            Series aren’t boosters.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “.. I should have said not routinely used in America.”

            It’s the I-P-V ! You say the IPV is not routinely used in America?

            I’d have a more meaningful conversation with a seagul!

          • Sia

            I said OPV wasn’t routinely used in America.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The IPV is and it does not contribute to herd immunity.

          • Katia

            I think he already has rabies.

          • Graceds

            Better get your shots, Katia.

          • Katia

            Some of those 3% are simply sore arms, fevers and rashes that resolve on their own. The rate of serious injury is infinitesimal.

            Most vaccine injury is reversible as well, even GBS. Damage from many of the vaccine-preventable diseases is permanent and incurable, e.g. hearing loss, vision loss, brain damage, paralysis.

            None of those vaccines are ineffective. Flu is probably the least effective of these, and even it is usually about 60% effective. Pertussis vaccine gets a bad rap. There is at least a 2 1/2 times greater chance of getting pertussis if you just live in an area with a lot of unvaccinated people. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/09/25/226147147/vaccine-refusals-fueled-californias-whooping-cough-epidemic Mumps vaccine may be “only” 85% effective. Considering that pre-vaccine, almost 100% of people got mumps, that’s pretty good.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The reason “measles” is not causing 450 deaths is due to the stricter criteria for diagnostic measles among the vaccinated.

            The prevaccine criteria were: “rash + fever + rhnitis”. If the same criteria were kept today we’d be seeing the same number of “measles” deaths we saw prevaccine.

          • Verna Lang

            Bingo! Thank you for answering my question about your leaps of logic. Again, a statement totally without any solid evidence backing it up.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes – brought back to the USA by unvaccinated missionaries, I believe.

          • Graceds

            There was no source for the Disneyland outbreak, Mike.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, but the measles strain was from the Phillipines, as you yourself stated correctly.

          • Katia

            That was the Ohio outbreak. No one knows who Patient Zero was in the Disney outbreak, nor where s/he came from.

        • Mike P

          “What many people do not know about the Disney outbreak is that it was carried back to Canada by a family that came from a religious community in Quebec that shuns vaccinations.”

          What caca poo poo that statement is. The real reason its not known by many people is because it is simply untrue. Patient zero has never been identified and fabricating such a lie is a bastard attempt at manipulating the population through fear and blame in order to justify mandates…$$$$$$$$$$!!

          • Verna Lang

            Try reading the comment again. I didn’t say anything about patient zero or where the Disney strain originated. I was talking about what happened to a visitor to Disney that returned to Quebec and brought the measles with them. They then shared them generously with other members of their community that were known to be unvaccinated. Their travel plans, the match for the Disney strain and their religious objections to vaccination were all well known. Before you start tossing insults and accusations you should make more of an attempt to actually understand what you are frothing at the mouth about. It would make you look like less of an idiot.

    • Tannim

      Try again, learn how the immune system actually works, and the actual history of hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition as they relate to disease reduction, then get back to us educated folks when you get past the propaganda nonsense into actual science.

      In the meantime, best return your medical degree to the 7-11 you bought it from.

      • Christopher Hickie

        There’s a reason I expelled anti-vax families from my practice. You are it.

        • Tannim

          So when will you quit practicing and do it for real?

          Explain the Th1 and Th2 immune responses in relation to cytokine production and the entire immune system. When you can do so, get back to us. In the meantime, your 7-11 trip awaits.

          P.S. I wouldn’t use you for a doctor, either. I prefer intelligent people.

          • Mike Stevens

            I wish there were a shorthand version for writing out “Dunning-Kruger”.
            It gets tedious my having to do it so often in these discussions.

        • Yes. Bow to your authority.

      • Reality022

        The readers are posed with a decision here – who to assign more credibility in regards to science and medicine.
        Dr. Hickie who is not only a pediatriciian (MD), but also a scientist (PhD)
        or
        Various anti-science, anti-vaccine k00ks who are high school dropouts and hoping for a promotion to supervisor of the deep fryer.

        Tough decision.

      • “learn how the immune system actually works, and the actual history of hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition as they relate to disease reduction, then get back to us educated”

        That’s an interesting statement. If we go to the experts on how the immune system works, immunologists overwhelmingly support vaccination and vaccinate their own children. If we go to the experts on disease reduction, epidemiologists overwhelmingly support vaccination and vaccinate their own children.

        Why are those experts’ opinions not worth listening to? A giant conspiracy that includes every relevant expert?

        • Sia

          And said giant conspiracy either a)is too incompetent to take down a few crank youtube videos, b)doesn’t care to take them down or c)doesn’t actually exist.

          Either way, it naturally follows that there’s no threat.

      • Verna Lang

        That whole sanitation, hygiene and nutrition thing worked so well to make India free of polio. Couldn’t have been the OPV campaign. I wonder why the Indian government is still persisting with their “Take your poo to the loo!” campaign? Could it be because almost half their population still decorates the landscape with human fecal matter?

      • Mike Stevens

        Where is your medical degree from, Tannim?

        • Verna Lang

          Judging from his comments, he is a proud recipient of a degree from Google U. Too bad he missed the Dunning-Kruger article.

        • Katia

          Probably Sheetz! (A Pittsburgh convenience store.)

    • What about the current outbreak of pertussis in North Carolina? All of the children were vaccinated.

      • Dorit Reiss

        We could use a more effective pertussis vaccine. It’s not our most effective. it’s still much more effective than no vaccine – and not vaccinating increase risk of outbreaks.

        Saad B. Omer, et al., Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements: Secular Trends and Association of State Policies With Pertussis Incidence, 296 JAMA 1757(2006).

        Saad B. Omer, et al., Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis, 168 AMERICAN JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY 1389(2008).

        Aamer Imdad, et al., Religious Exemptions for Immunization and Risk of Pertussis in New York State, 2000–2011, PEDIATRICS (2013).

        • Tannim

          It doesn’t work because vaccines are a snapshot and not adaptable, while the diseases are the opposite. Immunology 101. The pro-poison crowd never understands that or admits it.

          • If it’s “immunology 101,” then why do immunologists overwhelmingly support vaccination and vaccinate their own children? Perhaps their opinions on immunology should carry more weight than yours.

          • Mike Stevens

            I think Tannim is clearly an expert immunologist, perhaps with several post doc theses under his belt and specialty expertise in vaccine immunology.
            Of course, I could be wrong, and he could just be some bozo in a basement somewhere, sitting in front of his laptop in his underpants.

          • Katia

            I think the latter. He thinks Hib is a flu virus, remember!

        • Vacunas Autismo

          An ineffective vaccine means the child gets exposed to double health risk. Only stupid parents and/or authorities would approve such a thing.

          • Dorit Reiss

            The fact that we could use a better pertussis vaccine doesn’t make it ineffective. It offers very good short term protection.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Short term protection, unless the kids are in the middle of an epidemic, is equivalent to no protection. But the fact that epidemics occur in highly vaccinated populations tells me you’re pulling the “short term” line out of the darkest part of our anatomy.

          • Dorit Reiss

            4 years protection is not equivalent to no protection.

            Nothing is 100% protective. The outbreaks in vaccinated populations were in part because the vaccine waned faster than scientists expected – and the schedule has been adjusted to that. The other part of that, however, is that current outbreaks are much more limited in number – thanks to the vaccine.

          • Mike Stevens

            The relevant time for protection is in infancy. This is the most dangerous time for kids who get pertussis, around one in 200 who catch it under 1 yr of age will die.
            If a child gets pertussis later, say when they are 8 or 10, they will become unwell, but the disease is rarely serious or fatal. In adults it is hardly pathogenic at all.

            That is why the crucial period to cover with vaccination is infancy – and the vaccine does that very well. By the time immunity wanes after 5-10 years, clinical disease is less important for the individual.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Infants are the most susceptible to get injured by the toxic and immunoactive compounds, both intended and u controlled, found in vaccines. Trading a theoretical risk of disease for the real risks of vaccine exposure is utterly foolish.

          • Sia

            No, it’s called “We don’t wish to free-ride on our more responsible neighbours.”

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..”We don’t wish to free-ride on our more responsible neighbours.”

            Want to eat more “herd immunity” brown pie again, broken record?

            Point refuted 1,000,000 times before.

          • Sia

            Uh-uh.

      • Katia
        • The second article you posted is from 2014. I guess I could be wrong, but that is over a year old.

          • Katia

            My mistake. That there’s nothing in the news about this so-called “outbreak” must mean there’s no outbreak. Maybe you could post a link to this alleged outbreak.

      • Mike Stevens

        Can you provide a citation to verify that all the cases were vaccinated, as I cannot find one?

        Looking at the pertussis vaccine returns, it seems as though between 3% and 5% of the children have exemptions or are unvaccinated.
        So if vaccine is NOT protective to any degree, then we will expect around 95%-97% of those with pertussis to have a history of vaccination.

        When you get your figures for the percentage of those with pertussis who were vaccinated, can you let us know please?
        If there were less than 95% of pertussis cases who were vaccinated (say 80% for example), then that would demonstrate the vaccine is effective to some degree.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          “…If there were less than 95% of pertussis cases who were vaccinated (say 80% for example), then that would demonstrate the vaccine is effective to some degree.”

          That comment proves ignorance of statistics. The amount of unvaccinated kinds in the US is two orders of magnitude smaller that the amount of vaccinated kids (1 out of 100), therefore the standard deviation in the unvaccinated group is much higher. Your comment would apply it both populations were eqully large.

          But then again rigourous scientists stay clear of the obscure art of vaccinology, something for the mediocre and the lacking in the scrupules department.

      • Christopher Hickie

        How about nothing in life is 100% perfect, and your insistence that everything be before you’ll use it reflects a level of intelligence and maturity of a 4 year-old? There is no reasoning with twits like you.

      • Katia

        I call your bluff! Prove it.

        • I’m sure with your level and knowledge in the medical community, Katia, you can call the local health department.

          Then what will you do with yourself?

          • Katia

            Snort! In other words, no proof. Figures.

          • Or, you could be really lazy.

          • Katia

            You’re trying to provoke me, and it won’t work. YOU made the statement; YOU provide proof or it’s a lie.

  • Tannim

    Boy, are the pro-poison idiots and their shilliness out in force here.

    Bottom line is this: both they and the editors are simply wrong. Their position is based on not knowing how the immune system actually works, a gross misunderstanding of individual rights coupled with typical foolish top-down central-planning liberal nonsense that doesn’t work, topped off with a healthy dose of hysterics and “think of the children!” propaganda screeching. The derp is strong with these fools.

    My health choices are not to be infringed on or mandated by ANY government to assuage the ignorant fears of morons who have not taken the time to be responsible for their own health and instead defer it to government or corporate shills with an obvious conflict of interest. That’s the settled law of Pierce vs. Society of Sisters, whether the morons like it or not. They are the ones who need to get with reality.

    • Dorit Reiss

      The reason immunologists, as well as other experts, support vaccination is because they work with the immune system.

      Pierce v. Society of Sisters acknowledges parental rights in the context of education. Nobody denies that parents have rights to make many decisions for their children. But those rights are not absolute.
      Theoretically the state can step in and interfere with parental rights for the child’s welfare, but that’s not what’s being discussed here. What’s being discussed is making it harder for the parents to send their unvaccinated child to school and risk others. Parents can still choose to refuse to protect their child from disease. Their freedom to make medical choices for the child is not limited. It just has consequences.

      • Tannim

        You are neither an immunologist or anything resembling a person with the slightest clue. I however, have done my research, and cited it.

        Pierce says that parents have final say in the upbringing of their children–including medical decisions.

        Rights are absolute. That’s why they are rights. If they are not, then they are mere privileges, granted and revoked by government. You might want to hit a basic civics class and educate yourself.

        Go home, troll. The adults are talking here. We prefer freedom, not your garbage.

        • Dorit Reiss

          I don’t know of any right that is absolute. Any right can be limited. In this context, as explained in Prince v. Massachusetts, 1944: “[a parent] cannot claim freedom from compulsory vaccination for the child more than for himself on religious grounds. [n12] The right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child [p167] to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death.” https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/321/158

        • Mike Stevens

          “You are neither an immunologist or anything resembling a person with the
          slightest clue. I however, have done my research, and cited it.”

          The facts tell otherwise.
          And I urge caution on your part telling an academic Law Professor that she hasn’t the “slightest clue” about your legal citation of Pierce vs Society of Sisters.

          Oh, and look up the definition of “troll” would you, as that’s another thing you seem not to know.

          And please could you tell us your own area of expertise, since at every turn you are slagging off others for “not being immunologists”?

  • gerberdaisy

    Wrong. Vaccinations are pharmaceutical drugs and as the Supreme Court themselves have admitted are “unavoidably unsafe.” It is morally wrong to force people to inject a drug into their or their children’s blood stream bypassing the body’s own immune system that quite definitely has risks of serious side affects. Granted, the percentage of people who have immediate catastrophic side affects is small, but it does exist, and as such parents should have the right to refuse and still be allowed to send their kids to school. The argument that the unvaccinated are harbingers of disease and should not be allowed in school or preschool is just logically flawed because unless the unvaccinated child has been exposed to said disease, they are not a carrier of it.

    • Dorit Reiss

      The Supreme Court did not admit that vaccines were unavoidably unsafe. http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2014/07/17/guest-post-vaccines-and-unavoidably-unsafe-products/

      Vaccines are not injected into the drug stream. But aside from the question whether it’s appropriate for government to require that parent vaccinate and protect their children from disease, school immunization requirements don’t. They just limit the ability of parents to send the unvaccinated child to school and risk others.

      • Tannim

        “Drug stream?”

        Really?

        You’re a special kind of stupid, aren’t you?

        • Dorit Reiss

          Thank you for pointing out the typo. I corrected it. Typing with squirming infant on lap leads to occasional typos.

          • Tannim

            I feel sorry for that kid. If it’s yours, it needs smarter parents.

          • Mike Stevens

            Having seen you inability to distinguish the difference between a virus (Influenza) and a bacterium (Haemophilus), I’d be a bit reticent calling a University professor “stupid” and saying her kid needs a “smarter parent” if I were you, Tannim.

      • EdR77203

        What has happened in Mississippi, West Virginia and California has made that limit a barrier that very few parents have the wherewithal to cross. They are for all intents and purposes mandates, not mere limits.

        • Dorit Reiss

          What happened? Mississippi had no exemption since the 1970s and WV never had one. They are poor states with a variety of problems, but the lack of no medical exemptions meant that preventable diseases were not one of their problems.

          The California change is still new, but we can hope it will achieve the same level of prevention.

          • EdR77203

            What you mean is that parents the legislature, the judicial system and the executive system should force parents to do what is right. Of course, you are the one who has decided what is right. Unfortunately, forced vaccination has forced a lot of problems that our schools are not equipped to handle.

          • “Of course, you are the one who has decided what is right.”

            Actually it’s the medical community that attests to the benefits and safety of vaccination. And it’s the people of California (and hopefully soon Colorado) who decided through their representatives to remove an exemption that was being abused.

          • Graceds

            Not the people of California.
            At the hearing for SB277, about 750 showed up in opposition.
            Only about 50, mostly lobbyists, came in support.

          • Is that how constitutional republics work? Committee meeting attendance? Popular support for SB277 measured with traditional ways seems pretty strong. Which isn’t surprising, vaccine paranoia is a fairly fringe phenomenon.

          • Graceds

            I do think governments, both state and federal, should respect the right of parents and adults to not be coerced into a medical intervention.

          • EdR77203

            No, it is the will of well financed corporations that have paid their way through the legislature.

          • Sia

            Hardly matters – they have evidence showing they’re right.

  • Vacunas Autismo

    It is time, for example, to stop claiming that the whooping cough vaccine reduces circulation of that particular illness. But vaccine fanatics never give up and they never stop lying.

    • Dorit Reiss

      There actually is evidence that lower rates of pertussis vaccines=more pertussis, so the vaccine does help, though we could certainly use a more effective one. See:
      Saad B. Omer, et al., Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements: Secular Trends and Association of State Policies With Pertussis Incidence, 296 JAMA 1757(2006).

      Saad B. Omer, et al., Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis, 168 AMERICAN JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY 1389(2008).

      Aamer Imdad, et al., Religious Exemptions for Immunization and Risk of Pertussis in New York State, 2000–2011, PEDIATRICS (2013).

      • Vacunas Autismo

        There’s also evidence that more vaccine doses = higher infant mortality rate.

        Neil Z Miller and Gary S Goldman -Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity? – Hum Exp Toxicol. 2011 Sep

        • Dorit Reiss

          I am familiar with that problematic article. Among its problems are cherry picking the year – 2009 – with no explanation, and ignoring the differences in defining live births among countries. Also, creative counting of doses. It’s not very good. Which is a polite way to say it’s fatally flawed. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/

          • Dorit Reiss

            I’d also remind you that infant deaths have decreased 1940-2007 as the number of vaccines on the schedule increased. Look at figure 7. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’ree braindead by pretending the only health factor that has changed since 1940 is the number of vaccines.

            However, by your same logic, the incidence in autism has risen from 1:5000 in 1975 to 1:88 in 2012 as the number of vaccines on the schedule increased… correlations go both ways!

          • Dorit Reiss

            I was not claiming vaccines are the cause. But this lack of correlation is strong evidence against a claim that vaccines kill infants.

            Just as studies find ing no correlations between vaccines and autism are strong evidence against that causal connection.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Well, infant mortality rate in the USA is much higher than it is in countries with much less vaccines. Even higher than “3rd world” Cuba! Obviously you should clean house in more important aspects before ranting about forcing vaccines.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I’m not sure what your basis is to saying that. Australia and Israel have a similar schedule – Australia doesn’t give annual influenza, but gives meningococcal vaccines in infancy. And they have lower rates.

            As pointed above, the article claiming a connection is fatally flawed, and the decline in infant deaths as vaccines increased undermines the claim that vaccines cause infant deaths.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Well, infant mortality rate in the USA is much higher than it is in countries with much less vaccines.”
            I assume you mean “fewer” vaccines.

            Perhaps I can quote your own comment above… “You’ree braindead by pretending the only health factor that has changed since 1940 is the number of vaccines.”

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Well, for me cherry-picking is less of a fraud than comparing vaccines to adjuvants or other vaccines in so-called “safety” trials (which is the norm) and “efficacy” trials with no clinical, but surrogate end points. The whole vaccine construct is scientific fraud.

          • Dorit Reiss

            In many circumstances, those are valid controls. If it helped, I addressed that concern in detail here: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/debunking-myths-about-vaccine-testing-and-safety/

          • What are Michael Simpson’s credentials, Dorit? Thanks.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Sorry but the safety of a vaccine can obe establshed against inocuous placebo, not against a mmunologically active adjuvants. If you fail to understand this then you should quit discussing vaccines and stick to polishing the kitchen sink.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I do suggest actually reading the post.

        • Mike Stevens

          Could you explain how, if IMR is linked to number of vaccines on a vaccination schedule, why the USA IMR has now fallen to one sixth of what it was in the 1970s?

          This would seem to correlate closely with an increase in the number of vaccine shots on the schedule?

          Can we assume that correlation implies causation here, as I take it you think it does in Miller and Goldman’s execrable paper?

      • Reality022

        And now the readers can see why Professor Reiss is considered so extremely dangerous by the anti-science anti-vaccine cultists –
        She backs her statements not with uneducated delusional opinion but with a mountain of peer reviewed science from 1st tier journals.

        That leaves the k00ks sputtering and whimpering “shill!!11!!!” as their only defense.

        • Tannim

          Try again; Dorit is a known Internet polluter and paid shill who has no clue.

          • Reality022

            “Shill!!11!!!!”

            QED

          • Tannim

            I suggest you read below and learn facts.

          • Mike Stevens

            Tannim, perhaps you could follow the “advice” of your avatar for a while, which would give the rest of the people reading this discussion some respite?

      • Tannim

        Wrong. Inland empire pertussis outbreaks, 2001 and 2011. Troll.

  • EdR77203

    By the CDC’s statistics, we have autism, asthma, anaphylaxis, allergies and autoimmune disease afflicting our children at unprecedented levels. They have risen to these levels without any of these diseases being contagious. All of these diseases involve the immune system. So what are we doing to our children’s immune systems?

    • Dorit Reiss

      There is extensive evidence that none of these are caused by vaccines. Except for the fact that very rarely vaccines can lead to an allergic reaction (as anything can) – less than one per million cases.

      • Vacunas Autismo

        There is extensive evidence that the benefits of vacines are overrated and the risk of adverse effects underreported and underestimated.

        Tomljenovic L1, Shaw CA .Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? – Curr Med Chem. 2011;18(17):2630-7

        • Dorit Reiss

          If the best evidence is Shaw and Tomljenovic, known for fatally flawed work, as pointed out by the World Health Organization, then there’s no credible evidence for that claim.

          • Tannim

            Argue the facts, not to authority or attacking the source, troll.

          • Dorit Reiss

            The article above is an opinion piece, with no independent data, by two scientists with a history of doing bad work. Where are facts to argue, in your view?

          • Tannim

            Perhaps if you pulled you head out of your ass and your wallet out of Big Pharma’s pocket, you might read and learn. But that’s as likely as the sun setting in the east,

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Good to know that their table with data on Neurodevelopmental Toxicity of Aluminum Compounds in Various Species (including human infants) is just an opinion like we all have an as…hole. Thanks for the valuable insight!

          • Katia

            Tell your friend Vacunas that!

          • Reality022

            Allow me, Professor Reiss.
            WHO evisceration of Shaw and Tomljenovic:

            who(dot)int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/adjuvants/Jun_2012/en/

            The WHO points out the serious and sophomoric errors in the Shaw and Tomljenovic “research”. It is hard to believe that PhD scientists could produce such shoddy work that wouldn’t make the grade in an undergraduate program.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The WHO is a political body, not a source of primary science. Your quote is a personal opinion and even Doris would have to agree.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Thank you.

        • Mike Stevens

          That seems to merely be the opinion of the authors, who don’t seem to have any significant relevant background in primary research in vaccines, and whose qualifications and expertise to make judgements has been called into serious question.

          There are I admit a number of vaccines which have not been as effective in practice as was originally hoped during the conception stage. BCG is one of them, for example, but nowadays we take a realistic view of the benefits (which still vastly outweigh the potential harm, btw)

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Who has a valid background on vaccines? the makes of this variant of snake oil? Any person with a sound scientific background is able to understand the vaccine papers and clinical trials, it is NOT rocket science but a lower guesswork discipline.

      • EdR77203

        All of the safety studies done by the vaccine makers use other vaccines or shots containing the adjuvants as the “placebo”. On what do these extensive studies base their claim that none of this is related to vaccines?

        • Dorit Reiss
          • EdR77203

            Please explain using your own words rather than the wordiness of skepticalraptor.

          • Tannim

            She can’t because she has no clue.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I did. It’s my post. With references.

          • EdR77203

            You use opinion blogs as your references. Please explain how you know that all of these non-contagious immune system diseases are not related to vaccines

          • Dorit Reiss

            From numerous studies. For example, the autism studies can be found here: http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

            On allergies and other autoimmune conditions see:

            Paul A. Offit & Charles J. Hackett, Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Vaccines Cause Allergic or Autoimmune Diseases?, 111 PEDIATRICS 653(2003).

          • Tannim

            Offit? Try a credible source without a conflict of interest.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Dr. Offit doesn’t have any current conflicts of interest. He is a published scientist with extensive expertise.

          • Tannim

            Mr. 10,000 Vaccines? Yeah, right.

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps you should try and understand some of his scienctific publications. From your comment it is clear you haven’t a clue what the “10 thousand” vaccine issue was about.

            Are you perchance an immunologist, or someone with biomedical training, who can understand the underlying pathophysiological principles?

          • EdR77203

            You have Paul Offit clinging to the hygiene hypothesis as the cause of more allergies. You have another opinion piece that does not address this question.

            So I go back to the question. What are we doing to our children’s immune systems? Please answer it in your own words.

          • Dorit Reiss

            ? The article summarizes the large scale studies showing that vaccines do not cause allergies.

            We are teaching our children’s immune system to protect against a variety of infectious diseases via vaccines in a safe manner that does not cause chronic problems.

          • Tannim

            Allergies are Th2 immune responses by definition, caused by immune system imbalances from vaccines among other causes.

          • EdR77203

            No. We have numerous immune system illnesses that have followed in the wake of the vaccine schedule. You have no other explanation.

            So I go back to the question. What are we doing to our children’s immune systems? Please answer it in your own words.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I understand that you would like vaccines to be the culprit. Since the studies do not show a link to vaccines, you are wrong.

          • EdR77203

            Am I? These illnesses cannot be explained by contagion. They cannot be explained by genetics. They have to be explained with something exogenous. What do you have besides vaccines that explains this?

            In light of the what is happening to our children, you and your opinion pieces are just pontificating.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Again, the question whether it’s vaccines was looked at. In large scale studies. The answer was no.

          • EdR77203

            You say it has been looked at. You can’t explain why it can’t be vaccines. You can’t name anything else it might be. You claim knowledge you do not have.

          • Mike Stevens

            “We have numerous immune system illnesses that have followed in the wake of the vaccine schedule.”

            As virtually all children get vaccines, one could claim that everything in life “follows in their wake”. Puberty, marriage, childbirth, getting a job, learning to drive, becoming ill (Oh! that one has to be due to vaccines, sure, so why not the others?)

          • EdR77203

            Because all five illnesses are non-contagious epidemics that involve our children’s immune systems which the vaccine schedule has been tinkering with. Puberty, marriage, childbirth, getting a job, learning to drive, becoming ill are pointless and do not follow the argument I offered.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            As virtually all children get vaccines, one could claim that
            everything in life “follows in their wake”

            Certainly, including the lower incidence of so-called “vaccine preventable” diseases, clearly due to the massive improvements in sanitation, nutrition and housing conditions already prior to the vaccines.

            However, the claim that massive use of immunoactive adjuvants is behind the increase in autoimmune disease is the most plausible.

            What’s more, the mechanisms are known and documented:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23557271

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (Shoenfeld’s syndrome): clinical and immunological spectrum.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24238833

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA) 2013: Unveiling the pathogenic, clinical and diagnostic aspects.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24238833

            Autoimmune (auto-inflammatory) syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA)–animal models as a proof of concept.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902

            ‘ASIA’ – autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            As virtually all children get vaccines, one could claim that

            everything in life “follows in their wake”

            Certainly, including the lower incidence of so-called “vaccine preventable” diseases, clearly due to the massive improvements in sanitation, nutrition and housing conditions already prior to the vaccines.

            However, the claim that massive use of immunoactive adjuvants is behind the increase in autoimmune disease is the most plausible.

            What’s more, the mechanisms are known and documented (PUBMED numbers):

            23557271

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (Shoenfeld’s syndrome): clinical and immunological spectrum.

            24238833

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA) 2013: Unveiling the pathogenic, clinical and diagnostic aspects.

            24238833

            Autoimmune (auto-inflammatory) syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA)–animal models as a proof of concept.

            20708902

            ‘ASIA’ – autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants.

          • Mike Stevens

            ASIA is a trumped up syndrome – it doesn’t exist.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794485

          • “We have numerous immune system illnesses that have followed in the wake of the vaccine schedule.”

            But no strong correlation between these things, or serious evidence of causation.

          • Mike P

            “We are teaching our children’s immune system to protect against a variety of infectious diseases via vaccines…”

            In other words, humans are born with defective immune systems that begged for the takeover of vaccines because the immune system was just simply unable to learn for itself. Physiology’s a real b***h, isn’t it, Dorit?

          • Sia

            Using a dead or weakened germ to show the immune system what a disease looks like with a version that can’t fight back.

          • Mike Stevens

            Can’t you read?

          • EdR77203

            I have no intention of reading skeptical raptor. He is verbose and he tends to ramble.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I have no intention of reading skeptical raptor”
            It’s not Skeptical Raptor’s article – it is Dorit’s article which was hosted by Raptor.
            So it is where she explains it “in her own words” just like you wanted, doh!

            But if you wish to cover your eyes as well as sticking fingers in your ears I can’t help you.

        • Mike Stevens

          “All of the safety studies done by the vaccine makers use other vaccines or shots containing the adjuvants as the “placebo”.”

          This common and pervasive lie is easily disproved by typing “Vaccine saline placebo” into Google.

          However, not all vaccines are tested against placebo when safety is concerned – some new vaccines are tested against the current version of the vaccine, since it is unethical and illegal to use study subjects as placebos if this subjects them to possible harm.

          To help you grasp this concept, think of insulin. The early versions of pork and salmon insulin were miraculous and highly succesful. When human insulins were developed, they had to be tested against what, do you think?
          As it is unethical to give diabetics saline instead of insulin, the studies compared human insulin against pork insulin. Human insulin was found to be safer and more effective, so we use that now. Capiche?

          • EdR77203

            The reason for comparing against placebo (saline) is because it is known that it has no effect and it is harmless. The vaccine is thus compared to a shot that has no effect. That is not true for a vaccine or for a shot that contains adjuvants. Comparing a vaccine against another vaccine is in effect saying that we know that this vaccine is safe because vaccines are safe.

            The practice of doing safety tests without placebo is not valid.

          • Mike Stevens

            All original vaccine studies are done with saline placebo. For example they used them in rotavirus, polio and HPV vaccine studies to name a few.
            Here are a few others:
            https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vaccine+%22saline+placebo%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=cOmFVtbbF8SePuP-grgH

          • Sia

            And obviously if you compare a vaccine X to saline and know it’s safety profile compared to saline (Y)…and then compare vaccince Z to Vaccine X – you obviously now know three things:

            1)Vaccine X safety profile relative to Vaccine Z

            2)Vaccine X safety profile relative to Y

            You can work out:

            3)Vaccine Z safety profile compared to saline from there.

          • Mike Stevens

            Quite.
            I sometimes use the analogy of insulins.
            The first ones (pork, salmon) were pretty crude, but were fantastic compared to giving saline placebos in diabetic coma.
            But then human insulins came along. So what do you compare them to? The best available option at the time, obviously (and not saline).

          • Is this an opinion shared by actual epidemiologists or experts in experimental design? I’ve only heard it from laypeople who started with the belief that vaccines are dangerous and needed a scientific-sounding argument to support that belief.

          • Sia

            I’ll even type it for the lurkers:

            https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22vaccine+saline+placebo%22&oq=%22vaccine+saline+placebo%22&gs_l=serp.3..0i30.3590.4739.0.4888.2.2.0.0.0.0.115.229.0j2.2.0….0…1c.1.64.serp..0.2.229.eQh9QOJvI6A

          • Sia

            After all that screeching about the Nuremberg code, they propose something that would violate it? Lmao!

      • Tannim

        So the vaccines don’t prevent anything. Thanks for admitting that, troll.

        • Dorit Reiss

          I think you’re a little confuse. The common above explains that vaccines don’t cause autism, asthma, allergies. Not that they don’t prevent diseases.

          • Tannim

            Try again and learn actual science. Start with actual cytokines and Th cells.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yup, confused.

  • Christopher Hickie

    The anti-vax dumbarses have crawled out of their holes, I see. All I have left to say is that these diseases that vaccines prevent do not care about the lunacy of the anti-vax crowd. Follow anti-vax fools at the peril of your children, parents.

    • Tannim

      Read below and get a clue, maroon.

    • Vacunas Autismo

      Effects of the HepB vaccine on a newborn:

      http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Ian-125.jpg

      THis was to prevent risk of an STD… on a 1 day old! Are vaxx pushers also pedophiles? Otherwise I can’t understand their concerns and the will to accept these risks.

      It’s the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas. Google it up.

      • Kiko

        There is no reason for a newborn to have a hep b vaccination. The parents were misinformed as are the pediatricians. I hope the child recovers and the family gets a monstrous lawsuit settlement. I hope this also makes all the main stream media outlets as a warning to parents on the dangers of early and over vaccinating your children.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          The child died free of STD.

          Another vaccine “success”.

          • Kiko

            I wonder if the parents will take the advice of Brooke Dunne, Cathy, Kathy, Ivan, Katia, Andrew Lazarus, Reality022, kfunk937, Mitt Romney, that vaccines are perfectly safe and they have nothing to worry about. These are the types of shots that our Government is being coerced, bribed, and bullied into mandating on to all of us and our children. When a child suffers a reaction they try to lie and say it was a coincidence. F your vaccinations, we will take the ones we want and need on our terms, not yours. Medical freedom must be upheld or more will die and be maimed.

          • Graceds

            Informed consent.

          • Ivan

            Tammy Carrington of Diboll, Texas?

            Her son didn’t die. He has cerebral palsy and is still alive today.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            O well, even worse.

            But he’s free of STD and we should all CELEBRATE another vaccine success story.

          • Kiko

            We saw a physician in Houston who
            specialized in Hepatitis B adverse reactions and he did a battery of tests. His
            name is Andrew Campbell, MD. He told us that Jonathan definitely did have an
            adverse reaction to the hep B vaccine. We had a SPECT scan by Richard
            Neubauer, MD in Ft. Lauderdale who also stated that Jonathan had toxic anoxic
            encephalopathy directly related to the hepatitis B vaccine and this was not the
            first time he had seen it and unfortunately would not be the last time he would
            see it. We were also told that Jonathan’s intracranial pressure was so
            intense for such a long period of time from his prolonged horrific screaming
            that the vessel couldn’t handle the pressure and ruptured. I was told that
            brain vessels are the thinnest vessels and are not built to withstand intense
            and prolonged pressure such as screaming for 18-20 hours a day for four
            months.

          • Ivan

            Okay. Let’s talk about Andrew Campbell, MD from Houston TX

            Disciplinary Actions against Andrew Campbell, M.D.
            http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/campbell/complaint.shtml

            According to the Texas Medical Board, Dr. Campbell no longer has a license to practice medicine in that state.
            http://scholarlyoa.com/2013/12/26/a-medical-publisher-with-some-problems/

            You’re not really into fact-checking your shlt, are you Ace?

          • Kiko

            Attack the Doctor and toss him into the pit with Wakefield. Outta my face with your nonsense. The most chilling words ever spoken by a neurosurgeon ” There are things far worse than death ”
            A vaccine injury can mean not just death but the rest of your, your spouse’s and your other Children’s lives and livelihood. Open your eyes every morning after broken sleep to the same care routine of your vaccine injured child, the reality sets in, there is no one to help you, no one who cares, just business as usual and on to destroy more families. And there you are day after day night after night season after season, every one grows older, you eventually die and your children are left to tell the tale through the fog of astroturfers, crooked politicians, misled Dr’s, and greedy pharmaceutical lobbying in the name of profit.

          • You’re really just too fcking stupid for words. You are being publicly humiliated, but you’re too dumb to realize it. Well, you’ll have another sock account soon enough, right bridge?

          • Kiko

            Your use of profanity will not make your point valid. My intelligence or lack thereof does not influence the validity of the cold hard facts that I have presented to you and your shill associates. What you do with the information is up to you. As for sock accounts, takes one to spot one.

          • My use of profanity is not an attempt to validate my point. It is simply an expression of my frustration from dealing with idiots like you all day.

            You have presented *nothing* that has not been torn to shreds. And your lack of intelligence is glaring.

            As for socks, you’ve had multiple, with the most recent being Bridget. My account is years old, and the only one I have.

          • Kiko

            And how do you deal with idiots like me all day might I ask? Oh, thats right you get paid to be here, I do this for free because I have a vaccine injured child.

          • Go fck yourself. I’m sick of your baseless shill accusations. I do this because I actually understand it. Based on the content of your posts, I’d be very hard pressed to believe that if you have a child with any health issues that they were caused by vaccines, regardless of the label you force on them.

          • Mike Stevens

            “toss him into the pit with Wakefield”
            That’s where the fraud belongs, so that’s the best place for him, I’d have thought.

          • Kiko

            Where do the shills, liars, and astroturfers belong Mikey?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Where do the shills, liars, and astroturfers belong Mikey?”

            Where they have always been… in your overactive imagination, along with the idea that vaccines cause autism, of course.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “… I don’t know if he got the Vitamin K which might have prevented it”

            Wow! no we need an injection to protect us from the next injection! LOL

          • Ivan

            Before you edited your comment you said

            “It’s the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas. Google it up.”

            Not really good at this are you, troll?

          • This appears to be the original source of that pic, though I’m not positive.
            medadvisor.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-story-of-hepatitis-b.html?m=1

          • Ivan

            “NEWBORN INFANT WITH HEPATITIS B AND MASSIVE ASCITES FROM LIVER FAILURE”

            Thanks. so … a baby born with Hep B.

          • Umm, gee, how could that be possible? Babies don’t get STDs!

          • Ivan

            Kid’s a prodigy. A born playa.

          • AutismDadd

            Yep just like Gardasil victims…no cervical cancer…R.I.P.

      • Ivan

        I did. Tammy Carrington, “Breast cancer survivor, Naturopath & mom to a special needs child.”

        She wrote “A Vaccine Horror Story” a few years ago. These days she has a new gig.

        https://twitter.com/TammyCarrington/status/443570627203440640

        • Vacunas Autismo

          It’s her perfect right, although I wouldn’t dare the impudence of calling someone’s misfortunes “gigs”.

          • Ivan

            My bad.

            She’s a pay per post writer for whoever needs content. Gig Is an industry term.

            Check out Fiverr sometime.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Well, Dr. Off-it is paid by the vaccine industry and writes about how harmless his own products are. Where’s your outrage?

            What’s good for the goose…

          • Ivan

            Tu quoque?

            Didn’t see that coming.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            But bow your high moral ground is closer to … well, the ground.

          • Ivan

            Deflection attempt noted.

            Source of the photo? I already know, but why don’t you tell me.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            His name is Ian and he’s dead: http://www.iansvoice.org/

          • Ivan

            Too late. You’ve already been caught lying.

          • I feel like I should have to pay admission to watch these public flayings. If you put kiko and vacuous in a scrotum together, you wouldn’t even be able to tell the difference.

          • AutismDadd

            Take your meds.

          • Katia

            Actually, Offit is paid by the University of Pennsylvania, not the vaccine industry. He no longer benefits from Rotateq.
            http://www.science20.com/countering_psychology_woo_and_science_asds/blog/paul_offit_rotavirus_and_counterpoint_age_autisms_mark_blaxill

          • AutismDadd

            Oh? Did he lose the millions he sold it for? If not he’s STILL benefiting from it in many ways.

          • AutismDadd

            Stop with the truth, Katia you stooge!
            Us antivaxers can’t handle the truth!

        • Proponent
          • Brooke Dunne

            Oh, not good.

            ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE

            Attached to this Order to Show Cause are two prior Orders of the undersigned. The first
            Order, dated August 21, 2001, orders petitioner to explain discrepancies between petitioner’s
            affidavits and the contemporaneous medical records

            This story just keeps getting better.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The favorable decision indicates the petitioner was correct (and the doctors lied to cover up their asses, as usual)

          • Brooke Dunne

            This is the Carrington case. Was it dismissed or settled?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            I thought you were responding to my case.

            Yes, there are false claims in every legal field, so what? Are you trying to imply the VICP has a higher than average fraud rate?

          • Brooke Dunne

            I am on topic, Tammy Carrington.

            Let me answer the question for you

            One could conclude from the record in this case that petitioner is attempting to serially litigate Jonathan’s claim for compensation. Having been unable to find an expert to opine that the hepatitis B vaccinations Jonathan received on August 3 and October 13, 1997 were the cause of his brain injury on December 10-11, 1997, petitioner is now proceeding under the alternative theories that mercury caused the brain injury or that Jonathan’s current condition is somehow related to autism. Unfortunately, petitioner has failed to produce any evidence related to either theory.

            http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/VOWELL.Carrington041907.pdf

          • Vacunas Autismo

            My question remains unanswered:

            Are you trying to imply the VICP has a higher than average fraud rate?

          • Sia

            Biased towards false positives.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..Biased towards false positives..”

            Sure, let’s illustrate the process:

            – Mom: my kid was lively and communicative before his vaccine, right afterwards he became autistic.
            – Doctor: It is proven that vaccines do NOT cause autism (oops! a negative!).
            – Mom: But shouldn’t I still report to VAERS?
            – Doctors: It wouldn’t help becasue autism is not in the injury tables.
            – Mom: I see. Thanks for saving me thetime and the trouble.

            Your “biased” comment is, in turn, highly biased. LOL.

          • Sia

            Correlation is not causation.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Correlation is not causation.”

            Wrong, it’s “Correlation does not imply causation”, but it does not exclude it either.

            Finding out should be up to VAERS. However, the “bias tables” prevents autism from being reported and a possible relation to be investigated …

            … and then a MORON lectures us about “overreporting” LOL

          • Sia

            I wasn’t quoting it word for word.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…I wasn’t quoting it word for word.”

            Too many words for you to remember? LOL

          • Sia

            Not really – I just wasn’t trying to.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “… I just wasn’t trying to.”

            No need to explain, the lack of reflection in your replies is obvious to all.

            You just care abut your neighbors getting vaccinated..that’s all.

            That’s your petty, fear-basded crusade and you’re impervious to reality.

          • Sia

            Uh-uh. Get on with some then.

          • Proponent

            “VOWELL, Special Master:

            On July 26, 1999, Mrs. Tammy Carrington timely filed a petition under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Act [“Vaccine Act” or “Program”], 42 U.S.C. §300aa-10 et seq.2 on behalf of her minor son, Jonathan. Her petition was dismissed with prejudice on May 29, 2007, based on petitioner’s failure to prosecute. Petitioner’s election to pursue a civil action was filed on July 19, 2007.”

            Additionally, and as previously mentioned.. lawyers got their coin..

            “However, the requested amounts will be adjusted by the court, as indicated above, to an amount that is reasonable and appropriately documented. Accordingly, I hereby award the total of $63,995.6722. This total represents $1,859.30 in petitioner’s personal costs, $53,229.50 in attorney fees, and $8,906.87 in litigation costs. The
            payment shall be:

            1. a lump sum of $62,136.37, in the form of a check payable jointly to
            petitioner, Tammy Carrington, and petitioner’s counsel, Clifford
            Shoemaker, for attorney fees and costs; and

            2. a lump sum of $1,859.30, in the form of a check payable to petitioner, Tammy Carrington, for litigation costs personally incurred by petitioner.”

        • You really are a slime ball Ivan, what possible relevance does any of that have?

      • This picture appears to be originally posted as a baby with Hep B and liver failure. Not surprising that you lied again.
        medadvisor.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-story-of-hepatitis-b.html?m=1

        • Vacunas Autismo

          Child’sname: Ian Larsen Gromowski http://www.iansvoice.org/

          “…Just two things needed to be completed before he could be released. He needed to pass his hearing test and receive his hepatitis B vaccination. I blame myself here as a mother for not having been completely educated on vaccines.”

          • I don’t see that pic in your link.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Google “site:www.iansvoice.org” useless bum.

            All the site’s pics are hosted at http://dmca.blob.core.windows.net/
            Another illiterate vaxxer bum that couldn’t you figure that by himself

          • You posted the link. The pic was not I the link. It is not my responsibility to do your work for you. As for my literacy, again, you don’t want to go down that road with me, troll.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            If you are not braindead, scroll down to heading “Day 17-29” and navigate the pics by clicking on the dots under footer “Gromowski Family” on the right side. All the pics are there.

          • Nope. Not interested. I read some of the text entries, and the whole thing sounds like a bunch of anecdotal fiction to me.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Your problem. Other IQ-impared might buy your tripe.

      • Picture flagged. This is one of the more offensive and downright disgusting anti-vax tactics: rather than offering PROOF AND EVIDENCE of their ridiculous claims, they would rather try to shock us with pictures of poor babies suffering. News flash: the Hepatitis B vaccine does NOT cause injuries of this kind. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-denier-cherry-picks-bad-hepatitis-vaccination-article/

        • Ivan

          No, no, no. Leave it up.

          This is a picture of a baby born with Hep B. Vacuous’ post is a PERFECT example of how these trolls lie. Constantly.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…This is a picture of a baby born with Hep B”

            Your face didn’t crack all up when you wrote that mendacity?

            http://www.iansvoice.org/

            “…Just two things needed to be completed before he could be released. He needed to pass his hearing test and receive his hepatitis B vaccination. I blame myself here as a mother for not having been completely educated on vaccines.”

          • Ivan

            I asked you to provide a link to that image hosted at iansvoice org.

            Where is it?

            Oh, that’s right. You lied.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Google “site:www.iansvoice.org” useless bum.

          • Ivan

            U mad bro?

            If that picture is Ian Gromowski, and not a child born with Hep B as the original source says, then show me the page where you found the photo at iansvoice org

            Easy peasy.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Shifting the goalposts?

            This pic is the same: http://dmca.blob.core.windows.net/dmcawm/wmt45e2e12/17-more-photos-of-ian.jpg

            And can be seen on this page: http://www.iansvoice.org/

            If you can use a mouse, scroll down to heading “Day 17-29” and navigate the pics by clicking on the dots under footer “Gromowski Family” on the right side. The rest of the pics are there.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          I’ll replace it with a picture of a so-called “vaccine preventable” disease, then you’ll shut up like the perfect w.hore.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I’ll replace it with a picture of a so-called “vaccine preventable” disease”
            No need, I’ll do that if you wish. Here is meningococcal disease.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/107e5e5ba7569923ff2c4439174ac986f36605f36e22f20d4e4854ed5a6d400e.jpg

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Now you only have to provide the following:

            1. Proof that the child wasn’t vaccinated,

            2. Prove this child wouldn’t have contracted the diseases had she taken the vaccine.

            3. Proof that the vaccine would not have injured that child.

            4. Proof that the child’s outcome was caused by meningococcaldiseases as opposed to the treatment.

            A lot of work to do!

          • Sia

            For the zillonth time you don’t prove a negative.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..For the zillonth time you don’t prove a negative.”

            Vaccinology is the exception, apparently.

            Vaccine apologists routinely “prove” that a kid dead from disease X would NOT have fallen ill if vaccinated.

            Vacinology = double standard pseudoscience.

          • Sia

            No, routinely prove that the chance would be lower and that all the evidence is against vaccines causing autism.

        • Kiko

          Who cares if you quote a blog. It’s a blog, a writers opinion. If images of vaccine injured children bother you then why don’t you try telling the truth.

          • Sia

            That is Ian. Iatrogenic death or medical malpractice is a case you can make.

            It’s far more likely that he died from the antibiotic he was allergic to – again.

      • Brooke Dunne

        A stipulated settlement. This was what’s called a “table injury.”

        It’s a sad story. No parent should have to suffer this kind of loss, but they also didn’t have to prove the vaccine caused child’s death.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          “… they also didn’t have to prove the vaccine caused child’s death”.

          Can you prove a vaccine has prevented a single child’s death?

          • Brooke Dunne

            Actually no. It’s a table injury. That’s how some cases are settled.

            Unless it’s shown the Plaintiff is just outright lying. That happens too.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            It is so because the majority of the decisions are statistically right. Manufacturers (exempt from responsibility) and government set up the compensation scheme.

            Manufactures know their products’ problems, crunched their numbers, and decided the tax payer should pay the compensation bills.

            Added bonus: without requirement of proof their vaccines can hardly ever get exposed.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…That’s how some cases are settled.”

            Without requirement of proof vaccines never ever get the blame.

            Convenient huh?

            Manufacturers enjoy immunity to boot (the only provided by vaccines lol).

            What a wonderful cartel protection scheme, and so fking cheap!

        • They didn’t have to prove it because the association between the injury and the vaccine is assumed by VICP. This association is based on research showing that causation is very likely given the timeframe.

          Trying to argue that a NVICP compensation for a Table injury does not support the notion that the vaccine caused the injury is beyond disingenuous.

          • Brooke Dunne

            Okay. Then there are the facts in this case:

            “From the mother’s own account, Ian had Meconium Aspiration Syndrome, developed an infection, was tachypnic, was intubated, had an allergic response to an antibiotic, became pancytopenic and went into organ failure.” — kfunk937 http://disq.us/8z7l09

            Tragic. The upside for the family, if there is any upside in a story like this, is somewhere in there he was given a Hep B vaccine and Uncle Sam will pay.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Then there’s the facts in this case”

            And you point to another shill’s post that also lacks any source.

          • Brooke Dunne

            I linked to kfunk’s comment because he put it quite concisely. I can go through point by point and show where everything he wrote is true, if you’d like:

            After my water was surgically broken at about 7:30 am, the nurses indicated there was meconium in the amniotic fluid. As they were concerned about meconium aspiration (MAS), the NICU was notified to be present at the birth.

      • kfunk937

        From the mother’s own account, Ian had Meconium Aspiration Syndrome, developed an infection, was tachypnic, was intubated, had an allergic response to an antibiotic, became pancytopenic and went into organ failure. Nonetheless, the mother erroneously believes his death was due to Hep B vaccination. And you ghouls egg her on.

        Poor baby. Poor family. As for you and your paedophilia accusation, GFY.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          “…had an allergic response to an antibiotic”

          Double iatrogeny. Death by doctor squared.

          Then this to boot:

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170CiteNPL

          Hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and autism diagnosis, NHIS 1997-2002.

          “…Boys vaccinated as neonates had threefold greater odds for autism diagnosis compared to boys never vaccinated or vaccinated after the first month of life. Non-Hispanic white boys were 64% less likely to have autism diagnosis relative to nonwhite boys.

          Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates vaccinated with the hepatitis B vaccine prior to 1999 (from vaccination record) had a threefold higher risk for parental report of autism diagnosis compared to boys not vaccinated as neonates during that same time period. ..”

          • Ivan

            Wait a minute, pigeon.

            I thought you wanted to talk about Tammy Carrington I mean Ian Gromowski?

        • Brooke Dunne

          Meconium Aspiration Syndrome. Oh no, that is sad.

          But you can’t sue anyone for that.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            But you can sue for iatrogeny, a motivation for the doctors to pull out a fancy diagnosis in a swift ass-covering maneuver.

          • Watson

            The story at iansvoice has been revised a few times but someone archived Mom’s version in 2009: http://www.autisable.com/2009/09/30/ians-voice/

            This baby aspirated stool during birth, had trouble breathing his first day of life, spent most of his time in ICU, developed an infection which caused a fever over 100 degrees by day 5, and had to be intubated to drain the fluid collecting in his abdomen.

            His mother describes that as “healthy as any baby should be.”

            I don’t think the problem is doctors trying to pull out a fancy diagnosis.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Soon after he was born, the doctor’s decided to move Ian to the NICU due to fear of Meconium Aspiration (MAS)

            The baby may or may not have aspirated stool, the doctors weren’t sure.

            Hospital infections are the primary cause of death in intensive care units, therefore, the mere placing a baby in the NICU is, by itself, a health hazard.

            Doctors exposed the baby to that hazard based on suspicions alone, which is a clear medical negligence. They initiated an unnecessary chain of events that ultimately le to the child’s death.

            To top it off, further unnecessary mediccal interventions complicated things further, such as the HepB vaccine. Parents had a very strong case and they won $190,000 in compensation.

          • Watson

            “The baby may or may not have aspirated stool, the doctors weren’t sure.”

            Now you’re just being dishonest. In the various versions of this story posted at Age of Autism, Whale,to and other such sites, Gromowski writes “Ian swallowed meconium (his stool) as he came through the birth canal.”

            In other words, Mom’s story vs Your alternate reality.

            The parents received compensation for a “Table Injury.” http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Ian swallowed meconium (his stool) as he came through the birth canal.”

            They’re parroting the doctors. How would they know if not because the doctors told them so?

            “…The parents received compensation for a “Table Injury.”

            The vaccine compensation works like that: Evidence is avoided, otherwise truth-finding would expose vaccines for the danger that they are.

          • kfunk937

            Good catch. I didn’t look for earlier versions.

            Amazing how often that happens. Some of the posters in these comments have serially evolving accounts, as well. What a shame that this behaviour diverts attention and resources from, say, working on supportive services and treatments.

    • Kiko

      You should all remember when you type the word anti vaxx, you are talking about people like the parents of this child.

      • Ivan

        Well then, let’s take a closer look at this story.

        It’s the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas. Is that what you’re going with?

        • Vacunas Autismo

          Actually Tammy Carrington reported the child’s story, my fault.

          Whoever the parents are, the child is real (as you acknowledged) and whoever wrote about him is immaterial.

          • Ivan

            I’ll give you an E for Effort.

            Tammy Carrington of Driboll, Texas wrote “A Vaccine Horror Story” supposedly about her own son.

            http://drlwilson.com/Articles/VACCINE%20HORROR.htm

            Try again?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            And?

          • Ivan

            Which is it, “She reported the child’s story” or “It’s the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas.”

            Pick a plot line.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Immaterial.

            You’ve aleady admitted the child’s story is real, thereby picking the plot.

          • Ivan

            Nice try, pigeon

            I’ve noted the author is a pay per postie. According to the story she wrote, which is unverified, the child had a brain bleed as an infant and is still alive.

            It may very well be true that Jonathan has cerebral palsy, I don’t know.

            So you lied about him being dead. You lied about, “she only reported the child’s story,” and you still haven’t fessed up to where you found the photo.

            Are you saying that photo is, in fact, Jonathan Carrington of Dribolll, TX when he was an infant?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…which is unverified”

            Now you backpedaling? LOL

            “..Are you saying that photo is, in fact, Jonathan Carrington of Dribolll

            Irrelevant, the child and his story are real.

            His name is Ian: http://www.iansvoice.org/

          • Ivan

            Now wait a minute, pigeon. I thought you told me to Google it up?

            Well I did. Turns out you’re a liar.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/562d56005b0d5ece262b4bec74dd21885119e2846a3202d3ba65dbe4c1fcccf8.jpg

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Wow! you took the time to Photoshop! lol

            Having ass burns?

          • Mike Stevens

            Well, well, Vacuous is revealed to be an out and out liar, and totally unapologetic about it too.
            Figures.

          • Katia

            Too much Palisades, Colorado Cherry Wine for Vacuous.

          • Ivan

            Ha ha ha.

            Four other people saw your original post, not to mention anybody who has notifications turned on.

            Then there’s this:

            “Actually Tammy Carrington reported the child’s story, my fault. Whoever the parents are, the…” — Vacunas Autismo http://disq.us/8zy46u

            “Which is it, ‘She reported the child’s story’ or ‘It’s the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas.'” — Ivan http://disq.us/8zy4oe

            Anyone reading this would have to wonder? Why do antivaxxers lie – all the time? Even when caught lying, you lie about that.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Errors aren’t lies, even though you IQ can’t afford to tell the difference.

            The child has been identified, his story verified, your imbecility confirmed.

          • Ivan

            Saying I photoshopped your original comment is absolutely a lie.

            Most people learn the difference between lies and truth by Kindergarten. You, apparently not.

          • Ivan

            Saying I photoshopped your original comment is absolutely a lie.

            Most people learn the difference between lies and truth by Kindergarten. Apparently you did not, .

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a42f12f4d3aa6576ca7e3f6a8687cab147e25636d82f6d4cc5d86f1e20348232.jpg

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Your confirmed imbecility is now reconfirmed.

          • Ivan
          • Vacunas Autismo

            It matters enough for you to take the trouble of opening a screenshot program, carefully select – by hand – the mattering part of the screen where my nick is, saving the resulting picture in a folder selected by hand, remembering the file name, clicking on the “image upload” button, manually navigating to the directory where my file is and patiently waiting for the upload to complete, then type a respiteful response.

            I would call this LOVE, gay love.

          • Sia

            That is Ian. His birth was not smooth – there were several things that went wrong.

            You could make a case regarding malpractice or medical negligence since he was given the very antibiotic he was allergic to.

            Not a vaccine injury though. Next.

          • Ivan

            It is Ian, but originally the clown was adamant that was Jonathan Carrington.

            Only when Tammy Carrington was shown to be an absolute fraud did he go looking for the real name of the baby in the picture.

        • Kiko

          This is what I am going with you shill. This is the type of bribed politicians we are dealing with.

          When I heard that Dr. William Reynolds
          Archer, M.D., the Commissioner of Health for the State of Texas made sure that
          all Texas kids were to receive this vaccine, but then exempted his own
          children, I scheduled a conference call with him.

          • Ivan

            Yeah, sorry. Not done with the son of Tammy Carrington, Diboll, Texas.

            We’ll get to your next lie in a minute.

        • Kiko

          You can look at this story all you like it’s a free disqus forum. There are thousands more vaccine injury stories just like it that you can look at as well.

          • Ivan

            No. You said “when you type the word anti vaxx, you are talking about people like the parents of this child.”

            I say, “Okay, then let’s take a look.”

            .

          • Kiko

            If you don’t like my comments you could team up with Cathy and try to get me banned.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEE0qpfeig

          • Ivan

            Why. You’re doing such an awesome job I think you need a spotlight, my man.

            Let’s make you the poster boy 😉

          • Graceds

            Lol.

          • Graceds

            http://m.ksbw.com/news/pertussis-outbreak-at-monterey-park-school/31881324
            March 2015
            Pertussis outbreak
            School officials said of the 524 students at Monterey Park, 99.5 percent are vaccinated, including the four students who have been diagnosed.

            All four have completed their five-day anti-biotic treatment at home and are back at school.

          • Reynaud

            Waning immunity is well known and never been hidden with pertussis vaccination – That’s why boosters are recommended!

          • Graceds

            The CDC data shows the 3rd dose children have higher rates of infection.
            DTaP Vaccination History of Pertussis Cases
            http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/surv-reporting.html

          • Reynaud

            What you’ve cited, from the epidemiological standpoint, is raw data without the denominator of total number with 3+ vaccinations. The “higher rate” is only the percent of the total cases recorded.

          • Graceds

            Age Unknown 0 doses 1-2 doses 3+ doses Total
            No. (%) No. (%) No. (%) No. (%) No.
            6-11 mos 282(32) 76(9) 190(22) 327(37) 875
            1-4 yrs 2,099(48) 341(8) 153(3) 1,810(41) 4,403
            5-6 yrs 691(41) 139(8) 36(2) 813(49) 1,679
            Total* 3,072(44) 556(8) 379(6) 2,950(42) 6,957
            Both higher no of cases and higher percent of total cases on the third shot.

          • Reynaud

            Don’t confuse incidence with prevalence.

          • Graceds

            Percent calculated from total cases aged 6 months to 6 years, n=6,957.

          • Reynaud

            However, the “rate” for just those with 3+ vaccinations cannot be calculated without knowing the total number of those in that category.

          • Graceds

            The no of cases reported in the population is significantly higher after the 3rd shot.
            Are you suggesting the higher no of cases is because the population increased?
            It couldn’t have increased at that rate.

          • Reynaud

            Number cases per WHAT population (denominator) of those with 3 or more Pertussis vaccinations? According to this 2014 data:

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/coverage/nis/child/tables/14/tab19_3dtp_race_iap_2014.pdf

            94.7% of 19-35 month old children in the USA have at least 3 doses of the vaccine. If, as your inference appears to be, the vaccine is totally worthless, why are only 41% of the cases in 2014 from that approximate age group (Age 1-4) as reported here:

            http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/downloads/pertuss-surv-report-2014.pdf

            And – unvaccinated (0 doses) and undervaccinated (1-2 doses) represent 11% of the cases while those with less than 3 doses are only 5.3% of the overall population.

          • Reynaud

            I’m done with attempting to explain validation of statistical analysis of incidence versus prevalence as it relates to risk rate calculations to you. Your data above is taken out of context without correlation to the broader context of all applicable data related to the populations like the total number in each group. You wouldn’t post anything like this and make blatant erroneous inferences if you had actually studied bio-statistics and epidemiology!

          • Sia

            There are thousands of STORIES – yes, that’s our point.

        • Kiko

          Anti vaxxers are parents who witnessed vaccine injury first hand and know it is real. Facts.

          • Ivan

            If you had truth and facts on your side, you wouldn’t hide behind a half dozen sockpuppet accounts and make up “personal stories,” loser.

          • Kiko

            Bana fana fo fill, bounces off me and back to you. Bully.

          • Sia

            Nor would they need us to accuse us of being paid.

  • Tannim

    And now to destroy this editorial nonsense…

    “The long list of pressing issues facing the Legislature for the 2016 session keeps growing: spiraling college costs, unaffordable health care, gun control, deteriorating roads. But the one issue facing all of Colorado that can’t go untended this session is vaccination.”

    The only thing on this list that needs addressing is the roads. College costs are a direct result of the federal monopoly on college loans and the state-run education nonsense that college should be for everyone–which is why the journalism dropouts at the Sentinel spout their garbage. Health care is indeed unaffordable, but that’s a federal problem with federal causes. Gun control? See also the Second Amendment and the individual right to keep and bear arms. Vaccinations? Read on.

    “Colorado regularly ranks worst or near-worst in the nation for vaccination rates, and it’s costing lives, health and millions of dollars.”

    Numbers of costs and deaths? Cite it or bite it. The numbers and costs have to be directly linked, not indirectly or assumed. Of course, no such numbers actually exist, because the statement is completely false.

    “The problem stems from past legislators, succumbing to fake science and political pressure, who were either sympathetic to odd parents who didn’t want to vaccinate their children, or shortsighted in thinking that making it easy to “opt-out” of mandatory vaccines was just no big deal.”

    Fake science? Obviously the editors have no idea how the immune system actually works at any level, and have never bothered to do the research on the DOZENS of published research papers on the effects of the toxins in vaccines on the human body. See also http://experimentalvaccines.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/86-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link.pdf. Of course, the actual biochemistry is so far over their head they can’t see the bottom of it, as it is with all of the pro-poison fools, so that’s not surprising. As for political pressure, it’s very simple: We own our bodies and have final say as to what goes in them–not the state. That’s at the very essence and foundation of the freedom we have by birthright–the very same freedom that these morons want to take away in the name of state control because of a boogeyman that they neither understand nor have any affection for, because they think they know best when they truly don’t.

    “The root of most of this building crisis comes from a discredited study run by a discredited doctor to tie autism to childhood vaccinations, and the U.S. media bought the hoax hook, line and sinker, helping to legitimize it. The groundless claim and fake study have since been debunked endless times.”

    Wrong. It’s obvious that they have never read the Wakefield study, which only linked an increase in gastrointestinal issues with autistic children post-vaccine and called for more study. He never claimed that vaccines cause autism. Furthermore, 3 years ago his co-author sued to get his license back and a special master UK medical court not only restored the license, but went through the study case-by-case and validated each and every one of them. So not only has the study NOT been debunked, but it has been CONFIRMED. The editors are simply ignorant of that which they speak. You can read the original Wakefield study and the special master’s exoneration at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/503.html. You can also see a list of studies that verify Wakefield, some of which predate his study by over two decades in the 70s, at http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/new-published-study-verifies-andrew-wakefields-research-on-autism-again/. Sorry to destroy the argument with pure facts.

    “There is not one reputable pediatrician, pediatric organization, hospital, clinic or researcher that does not vehemently work to debunk the autism lie and beg parents to vaccinate their children.”

    Argument to authority and reputation are false arguments. Try again. Most pediatricians have no clue about the differences in humoral and cellular immunity, how they happen and why, or how the entire immune system works. Instead they rely on the sales pitches of the pharmaceutical companies that sell the toxic shots. Furthermore, some people don’t vaccinate not because of autism, but because they actually have done the research and know what is going on more than the doctor does–and clearly more than these editors.

    “In Colorado, it’s much easier to say that you don’t want to vaccinate children than to prove that you have.”

    As it should be. Freedom of choice is the foundation of all Liberty. It is that Liberty that the editors despise and wish to destroy.

    “Many lawmakers and much of the public erroneously believed that since the bulk of the “herd” was vaccinated against potentially lethal diseases such as measles, polio and whooping cough, we’re all protected.”

    Once again, the ignorance shows. Herd immunity does not exist in humoral immunity because it wears off. Herd immunity only exists in cellular immunity, which is permanent and only achieved by contracting the disease in the first place–not from a toxic shot. As such, the previous generations that got measles naturally were perfectly protected, up to 75%, for life. The ones who get the shots have the imperfect humoral immunity wear off in 5 years, hence the call for boosters–because they simply don’t work and neglect the full operation of the immune system, which naturally adapts as part of cellular immunity but not with humoral immunity. Again, that’s the science.

    “They’re wrong. Dead wrong for some people. The incidence of those diseases continues to increase as vaccination rates decline. Last year reports of deaths of people with depressed immune systems sounded an alarm for all of us: Colorado, and the country, is at grave risk.”

    Again, cite it or bite it. Per the San Bernardino County Board of Health, the 2010 Inland Empire pertussis outbreak was 85% in vaccinated individuals. In 2011 it was 81%. Obviously the vaccines aren’t working since that many cases happened. Apparently the pertussis didn’t get the memo from Big Pharma that if the shot was done, they shouldn’t infect. Funny how nature works that way. Besides, being vaccinated does NOT mean that one cannot contract, carry, or transmit the disease, or even be asymptomatic. It’s called vaccine shedding and reacting; look it up and learn. There is no “grave risk,” either–these diseases are completely normal, mild, and quite survivable. It’s only in the ignorant minds of the pro-poison shills that measles and chicken pox are in the same vein as Ebola and cobra bites.

    “One death followed a measles outbreak at Disneyland earlier this year that sickened 100 people, all because foolish, misled, selfish people have avoided childhood vaccination rules.”

    Wrong. That death had nothing to do with the measles itself, but a lethal reaction to the measles shot. And to call those that have educated themselves to protect their children from unnecessary health risks of the toxic shots, up to including death, as “selfish” only displays a complete idiocy born of fear and their own projection of their own selfishness and laziness in not wanting to do what we have–get educated for ourselves and make the decisions for our own health.

    “Real scientists and medical professionals have been unequivocal: The purported danger of childhood vaccines are lies. Dangerous lies.”

    Again, argument to purported reputation is a false argument. See above about pediatricians. Is it a lie that I have seen directly kids go from healthy to living vegetables within hours of vaccines? Is it a lie that the MMR vaccine gave me not autism but encephalopathy and apraxia directly? Is it a lie that the brain’s lymphatic system is negatively affected by vaccines such that it cannot function properly to drain toxins from the drain, including the toxic heavy metals in the adjuvants that pass the blood-brain barrier and directly impact the neural processes? No, it’s no lie. None of it is–except the stupidity and lack of knowledge exhibited by the editors in their lies told here.

    “Colorado must join California in solving an ailing public health problem that’s easy to cure. This summer, California virtually eliminated all exemptions to that state’s childhood vaccination policy.”

    So before, the diseases have returned, meaning they are not cured, but here the claim is made that they can be cured. Make up your mind! However, Colorado doing anything Californicated is a bad idea by definition, but you can’t expect the editors to understand that because they are blinded by their liberal ignorance. Me, lived there and saw it directly, and it’s crap. Public health starts and ends with the individual and their own medical choices as decided by them to be what’s best for them, not some faceless and clueless politician and bureaucrat. Also, the law as passed is subject to referendum by the people of California, and it is likely to be overturned.

    “”The science is clear that vaccines dramatically protect children against a number of infectious and dangerous diseases,”” said Gov. Jerry Brown. “While it’s true that no medical intervention is without risk, the evidence shows that immunization powerfully benefits and protects the community.””

    Citing Governor Moonbeam, who is nowhere near an expert on anything except bad eyebrows, is about as false of an argument to authority as one can get. Try again.

    “California now requires every child who attends a public school or college to undergo vaccination. Colorado must do the same thing to prevent death and disease caused by irresponsible and reckless parents.”

    Again, it’s subject to referendum, and only applies to public schools, and is on its face unconstitutional. But to hear the editors spew, right now without such law, you’d think kids in Colorado are dropping dead in the streets from measles, mumps, and chicken pox. Not happening. The irresponsible ones here are the editors for their nonsense and shilliness.

    “The state cannot command these vaccinations, but lawmakers certainly can force scofflaws to stay away from public programs and venues. Schools, rec centers, colleges, day cares and employers should all demand that people comply with vaccination programs.”

    Nope. The First Amendment right to peaceably assemble is not limited to those with vaccines. But again, the editors hate freedom, so their seditious position is not surprising.

    “A sorry response by Colorado lawmakers earlier this year does nothing but increase reporting of vaccination rates and make it only slightly less easy to not vaccinate school-age children.”

    Sorry response to support freedom? Try again.

    “It’s almost unthinkable that a country like the United States would slide back decades in health care progress, risking the lives of millions of Americans potentially exposed to diseases we nearly eradicated — because of lies, laziness or ignorant fear.”

    None of the diseases the editors are complaining about are lethal to 99% of the population, yet the companies pushing them have killed more people than the diseases themselves. My life is not at risk because of potentially getting the measles–but it is at risk from causing an immune system imbalance from being forced to inject toxins into my bloodstream. Perhaps the editors would be better suited to research (assuming they know how)how the drugs of Big Pharma kill people. They can start with Vioxx.

    “But parents still won’t listen and comply. So the only answer is to change the law. Follow California’s lead here and prevent needless death and disease here in Colorado.”

    Here they finally admit their agenda: compliance with their point of view, no matter how ignorant it is, and to hell with anyone making their own decisions and choices because these elitist idiots know more than we do. Well, got news for you editors: You don’t, you never have, and you never will. So you can do us all a favor, and freedom itself a favor, by simply engaging in the other part of the First Amendment by simply shutting up until you get a clue.

    • Dorit Reiss

      I don’t see anything in the comment here that supports the claim that protecting children from disease via vaccines is not a good idea.

      • Tannim

        That’s because I never said that, outside of the proven claim that vaccines don’t work. Of course, if you want to poison your kids, assuming someone was stupid enough to dilute the gene pool with your defects, then go right ahead. But for the rest of us who are educated and know what we’re talking about, we will exercise our freedom of choice, which you are so desperately and pathologically trying to take away.

        • Dorit Reiss

          So theres no reason not to make schools safer, as tightening immunization mandates does.

          • Tannim

            Safer from what? Normal disease that kids get that create permanent immunity?

            Is that it? You fear permanent immunity?

          • Dorit Reiss

            You want children to get hib, polio, diphtheria and so on? to get natural immunity you have to get the disease.

          • Tannim

            Yep, you fear natural immunity. Polio still exists and has been relabeled. Hib, aka, the flu, is natural. Flu shots are crap shoots. Diptheria? This ain’t Russia. Most cases of these that cause natural immunity are asymptomatic and mild at best. You idiots think that every case kills, and you simply have no clue.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Sigh. I think someone who confuses hib (a bacterial illness) with influenza (a viral one) and dismisses the risks of diphtheria, a disease that kills 10% even with treatment, is not someone people should get vaccine advice from.

          • Tannim

            Spoken like a true idiot. Hib is Haemophilus influenzae type B. It’s the flu. Not all flus are viral. But you’re too stupid to know that.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            Just passing by….

            But here is my 2cents: the only plausible explanation is that Tannim works for a vaccine company and is deliberately
            trying to make the anti-vaccs out as morons…

            …because no one could possibly be so stupid as to believe his/her postings on Hib. No one…

            http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/infectious-diseases/gram-negative-bacilli/haemophilus-infections

            http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/basics/definition/con-20035101

            W&N

          • Katia

            Boy are you dumb! Haemophilus influenzae B is indeed a bacteria.
            http://www_cdc_gov/hi-disease/
            “Haemophilus influenzae (including Hib) is a bacterium that can
            cause a severe infection, occurring mostly in infants and children
            younger than five years of age. It can cause lifelong disability and be
            deadly. In spite of its name, Haemophilus influenzae bacteria do not cause influenza (the “flu”).”

          • Dorit Reiss

            Hib is bacterial. Influenza is viral. They are different things.

            “Haemophilus influenzae is a cause of bacterial infections that are often severe, particularly among infants. It was first described by Pfeiffer in 1892. During an outbreak of influenza he found the bacteria in sputum of patients and proposed a causal association between this bacterium and the clinical syndrome known as influenza. The organism was given the name Haemophilus by Winslow, et al. in 1920. It was not until 1933 that Smith, et al. established that influenza was caused by a virus and that H. influenzae was a cause of secondary infection.

            In the 1930s, Margaret Pittman demonstrated that H. influenzae could be isolated in encapsulated and unencapsulated forms. She identified six capsular types (a-f), and observed that virtually all isolates from cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and blood were of the capsular type b.

            Before the introduction of effective vaccines, H. influenzae type b (Hib) was the leading cause of bacterial meningitis and other invasive bacterial disease among children younger than 5 years of age; approximately one in 200 children in this age group developed invasive Hib disease. Nearly all Hib infections occurred among children younger than 5 years of age, and approximately two-thirds of all cases occurred among children younger than 18 months of age.”

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hib.html

          • Mike Stevens

            “Spoken like a true idiot. Hib is Haemophilus influenzae type B. It’s the flu.”

            Please stop before your own stupidity overwhelms the entire internet.
            Haemophilus influenzae is a bacterium. The Genus is Haemophilus, the Species name is influenzae. There are other Species, like parainfluenzae. The bacteria belong to the Family Pasteurellaceae.

            This taxonomic definition of the bacterium does not imply that the bacterium actually IS influenza disease.
            Haemophilus was erroneously thought to be the cause of Influenza in the early part of last century, hence the name.

            However in the 1930s a group of viruses were discovered which were proved to be the real cause of Influenza, and subdivided into 3 types, A, B and C. There are types of virus similar to Influenza which are named Parainfluenza, as well as many other viruses that cause respiratory illness. However, only Influenza viruses cause “Flu”. Everything else causes “Flu-like illness”.

            I appreciate this may be hard for a layperson to grasp without any microbiological background, but please take the time to look up these things for yourself (even Wikipedia can explain) before calling others who clearly know far more than you do “idiots” and “stupid”.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Well stated.

          • Sia

            And the same thing applies to Parapertussis vs Pertussis.

            Pertussis = Whooping Cough.

            Parapertussis = Whooping-Cough like.

            Heard of copycat killers? Just as Jack The Ripper isn’t the same person as the Yorkshire Ripper, there are copycat illnesses.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Please read John barry ” the great influenza…..”

            He has a very good discussion about the errors in thinking that attibuted flu to a bacterial cause….

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The diphtheria vaccine targets the toxin, not the bacteria. This means that, regardless of the vaccination coverage, the bacteria circulates undeterred. A vaccinated chld only “protects” (theoretically) itself, not others, “herd immunity” does not apply to this vaccine.

            The WHO and CDC recommend boosters every 10 years because that’s how fast vaccine antibodies wane. Only a minority of adults follow such recommendation, which means the adult population at large is EXPOSED. With the bacteria circulating freely, why aren’t the corpses littering the streets? what is preventing an diphtheria epidemic? certainly some factors that are not the vaccine.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Diphtheria vaccine does target the toxin, but the toxin gives the bacteria a colonization advantage – hence the vaccine does provide herd immunity. That’s why we saw outbreaks when immunization rates dropped in East Europe: as you point out, in very few population everyone is up to date, but high enough rates provide herd immunity.

          • Sia

            Diptheria was called “The Strangling Angel” for a reason.

          • Katia

            Snort! Do you see hospitals full of kids on respirators (today’s equivalent of iron lungs)? Do you see kids in braces? Polio hasn’t been renamed, bub. The “natural” flu has caused 4 pediatric deaths so far this year, and it’s been a mild season. Death from flu vaccines this year? Zero.

          • There are actually 10 listed deaths from the flu vaccine (2015).

            VAERS ID: 564751 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUMIST QUADRIVALENT)

            VAERS ID: 565640 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE)

            VAERS ID: 601733 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE QUADRIVALENT)

            VAERS ID: 604092 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (NO BRAND NAME)

            VAERS ID: 604906 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUARIX QUADRIVALENT)

            VAERS ID: 605086 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUCELVAX)

            VAERS ID: 605991 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE)

            VAERS ID: 608222 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE QUADRIVALENT)

            VAERS ID: 608707 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE HIGH-DOSE)

            VAERS ID: 609504 INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUVIRIN)

          • Katia

            Snort! VAERS says right on their website that reports do not imply causation.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Good, if they said the reports implied lack of causation then I’d begin to worry.

            Reports are the best existing indicator of a problem with vaccines. It is sad VAERS reporting has been made passive rather than mandatory (as is the case with infectious disease) in order to intentionally hide the real dimension of the problem from public view.

          • There is also a VAERS report of vaccines turning a man into the Incredible Hulk. Or at least there was, until he agreed to delete it, having made his point–VAERS collects reports, which are not good evidence of causation.

            http://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism

          • Sure, it is a passive system for tracking adverse reactions. No system is perfect and I am sure you appreciate that.

            You seem like a reasonable person, Colin. Perhaps you could explain a bit more why the Vaccine Safety Datalink is not allowed to be viewed by parents.

          • It’s not my field, but my understanding was that large datasets like the VSD have to be carefully searched to avoid violating the privacy of the people whose records are included. Proposals for access have to be screened for HIPAA compliance as far as I know. How would you open that up to the general public without blowing away patient privacy?

          • Dorit Reiss

            They have several ways to provide it to researches, but I think you’re right about the public. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/accessing-data.html

          • Dorit Reiss

            My guess would be because it has private information about people. The description of the site does not suggest that information is redacted. But it is, according to the site, made available to qualified researchers – http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/accessing-data.html

          • Graceds

            The identifying information could be easily blacked out.
            That’s not informed consent, to hide problems.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Nothing is hidden. These are health databases of healthcare providers which include full records of patients. Blacking out information from such records isn’t as simple as you seem to think. So access to the records themselves is limited. But researchers can use them to analyze and look for problems, and the studies are public.

          • Easily? What’s your experience with working with complex data sets? I suspect you’re just making a convenient assumption here. HIPAA isn’t that easy to evade.

          • Graceds

            That’s interesting.
            Why wouldn’t a parent be able to see what problems have been reported with a Vaccine.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Hipaa

          • Graceds

            We see results of adjudicated settlements from Vaccine Court, without it.
            The same could be done to allow parents to see the reports of adverse events within identifying info.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Perhaps you could explain a bit more why the Vaccine Safety Datalink is not allowed to be viewed by parents.”
            The VSD publish results/reports regularly.
            There are ways for researchers to gain access to the database, but there are hoops to jump through to ensure the data are appropriately used and confidentiality maintained.
            John, I am sure you can appreciate that parents would not wish their children’s data to be viewed and spread across the internet by just anyone.
            Valid proposals to access the data will be granted, but if you really wish to know more about their regulations I suggest you ask them.
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/data-sharing-guidelines.html

          • Dorit Reiss

            Here are two other deaths reported to VAERS.

            VAERS #379570: “…patient accidentally fell in open well (granite quarry filled with water), drowned and expired. This event occurred 49 days of receiving first dose of GARDASIL.”

            This would count as a death from Gardasil.

            VAERS ID: 495494-1 “Vaccine recipient started to bleed on both hands and walked over a filled bathtub.”

            This would count as a death from MMR.

            VAERS report do not show a vaccine killed anyone, not without investigation. Suggesting they do is a misuse of the system.

          • Sia

            VAERS-ID 495494-1 is particularly interesting – it happened after zero doses of lot none of the MMR.

          • Reality022

            Here’s a little test of literacy:

            Please go here:
            vaers.hhs(dot)gov/data/index
            and read the first sentence of the VAERS data page.
            What does it say?
            “When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established.

            Please tell the class what you interpret that statement to mean about raw VAERS data.

            Raw VAERS data cannot be used to say a vaccine caused anything.
            Those who try to pass off VAERS data as fact are lying to you or are completely illiterate ignoramuses. That whole VAERS entry webpage is one massive warning to not do what Jeffry is doing here.

            Readers should ask:
            What part of “no cause-and-effect relationship has been established” do anti-vaccine cultists not understand?
            Are they all illiterate or merely outrageous liars?

          • Sia

            Alternate possibility: NCVIP has a portal that bypasses that.

          • Reality022

            NCVIP? Did you mean NVIC?
            Babs Low Fisher’s NVdisIC does have a portal:
            http://www.medalerts.org/
            that dishonestly bypasses the VAERS warning and disclaimer page and never mentions the limitations of VAERS data since Babs’ main weapon against specific vaccines is a tally of VAERS reports which she represents as indicative of how dangerous the vaccine is.

            In my opinion she is a complete fraud and one of the most dishonest people in the anti-vaccine cult.
            My recommendation is that VAERS cut off NVIC access to their data until they reproduce the VAERS disclaimers about the data.
            (BTW – Babs’ IT man testified during the SB277 hearings that he designed the portal and then he used dishonest raw VAERS data to dishonestly impugn the safety of vaccines. Somebody let Dr. Pan know of this lying dishonesty by the NVIC so I’m sure NVIC and Babs were the brunt of many a joke and disdain behind closed doors.)

          • Sia

            I did indeed mean NVIC, thanks.

          • Sia

            I wonder if any of the anti-vaccine/anti-coerced people can explain how rinderpest was eradicated.

            It’s gone. Meaning zero risk from either choice – what do they think happened there?

          • Mike Stevens

            I picked a couple at random.
            First one was an infant. Apart from Fluzone, he had DTaP.
            So which of the 4 vaccines are you going to blame? Just the Flu, or another one or all of them?
            PS: These were the “Preexisting Conditions” of the case: Cerebral palsy; Dystonia; Ischemic Encephalopathy; Central Vision Improvement; Microcephaly. Complex PMH following anoxic/ischemic brain injury at birth. Hx seizures, weaned off anticonvulsants.

            Second one was a 65 year old man with ischaemic heart disease, who died from a myocardial infarction.

            I think medical verification that the vaccines were causal in these cases would be necessary before drawing any conclusions.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, polio has not been relabelled.
            In the 1950s around 20,000 kids developed paralysis from polio each year. Many hundreds of these required long term ventilatory support on iron lungs. The overall incidence was actually rising until vaccines kicked in.

            I will admit that some cases of illness similar to polio may have been mistakenly attributed to it back then, but not 20,000 cases each year.

            And if polio merely was given another name, then why did paralysis from it plummet so that within a couple of years there were no more cases, and hospitals mothballed all their iron lungs?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The proof that polio has been relabled is the Indian case. The total cases of paralysis before and after the massive WHO vaccination campaign has risen by an excess of 40.000 despite the country being declared “polio free”.

            http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065
            Polio programme: let us declare victory and move on.
            Indian Journal of Medical Ethics.

            The oral polio vaccinations has had two effects:

            1. Increasing the incidence of acute flaccid paralysis (AFP),
            2. Renaming “polio” away as AFP by restricting the diagnostic criteria until they’re impossible to meet.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The proof that polio has been relabled [sic] is the Indian case.”
            It would help if you sourced reliable evidence rather than antivaccine websites and comments from antivaccine activists.

            India was hyperendemic for polio, and in the 1980s a drive was brought in (Expanded Program for Immunisation, EPI) to help try and eradicate the disease, later pushed through this century in the form of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI).
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734678/

            Cases of paralysis in the 1980s were running up to 1000 per day (>300,000 per year), and following the initiatives above it has finally been eradicated with the last case in 2011.

            There have always been cases where paralysis was caused by other viruses (Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis, NPAFP), the important point here being that these cases are NOT due to Polio viruses, since under the GPEI all reported cases of paralysis have virological testing undertaken.

            The reasons that NPAFP cases have appeared to increase is that on the back of the GPEI programme, the authorities undertook intensive nation-wide surveillance for any cases of possible polio, so detection of what would have been undiagnosed or misdiagnosed cases due to other viruses went up. But these are due to other viruses, hence the name NON-POLIO AFP, of course.

            So this is not relabelling at all, just identification of paralysis cases NOT due to polio. I’d also be interested in your explanation as to why polio cases declined from highs of 300,000 cases of paralysis each year before the vaccination initiatives, to what you insist are the “relabelled” 40,000 cases now. Where did the other 260,000 cases go?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Only one simple question, slogan slinger, how did the diagnostic criteria in 1980 tell between NPAFP and polio which are clinically indistinguishable? (hint: it didn’t).

          • Mike Stevens

            Nope – another major math fail, Mr Vacant.
            300,000 cases of paralysis before vaccination, 47,000 after.
            Why the difference?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            47,000 excess cases, dumbo. That means 47,000 ABOVE what was considered “normal” NPAFP before.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, there were supposedly 47,000 cases in total, not 347,000 cases, according to your own reference.
            Didn’t you bother to read it?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/135/Supplement_1/S16.2

            TRENDS IN NONPOLIO ACUTE FLACCID PARALYSIS INCIDENCE IN INDIA 2000 TO 2013

            “…Nationwide, the NPAFP rate is 11.82 per 100 000 population, whereas the expected rate is 1 to 2 per 100 000 population.”

            10x the expected NPAFP rate means former “polio” is now diagnosed as NPAFP. The 10x excess cases cannot come out of the blue, as you nitwits pretend.

            A blatant reclassification: we bring on the vaccine and simultaneously restrict the definition of the disease and… voila! a miracle vaccine!

            Then this to boot:

            CONCLUSIONS:

            The incidence of NPAFP was strongly associated with the number of OPV doses delivered to the area.

            Wow! another “medical miracle” accomplished by the WHO!

          • Andrew Lazarus

            If the following were true, it would be significant:

            The fact that the total incidence of NPAFP after the vaccination campaign is HIGHER than the incidence of old “polio + NPAFP” combined proves the old “polio” was indeed NPAFP.

            The problem is, the statement is completely false! Before the vaccination, there were (as Dr Stevens points out) something on the order of 300,000 (I’ve seen even higher estimates) annual cases of polio-induced paralysis in India. And that doesn’t count acute flaccid paralysis that was already identified as not from polio! (Contrary to what antivaxers claim, diseases like GBS can often be differentiated from polio without lab tests; I don’t know the extent to which Indian doctors made these diagnoses).

            Now, not only is the number of cases much lower, it’s far from clear that 47,000 represents an annual caseload, or is the sum of several years’.

            So as Dr Stevens asked, where did the 260,000 other cases go? (Hint: the polio vaccine eliminated them, just as it did elsewhere i the world.)

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Again, before vaccination there was no way to tell whether paralisis was caused by poliovirus or by any cause of NPAFP simply because their clinical presentations are THE SAME and the diagnosis was exclusively based on clinical presentation. Therefore the estimates include any cause of AFP.

            The fact that once virological confirmation was in place (post-vaccination) and there was no poliovirus but the total AFP remained the same, exposes the truth that the “polio epidemic” was just NPAFP.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            The clinical presentations are not always the same. How well doctors did differentiating the less common causes from polio is not, of course, clear, but GBS was identified 50 years before the polio vaccine, so somebody was getting diagnosed with it.

            The best(!) argument you can make here is that the polio vaccine has only reduced AFP by 85%. Is that your point?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Yes, in practice they are indistinguishable as acknowledged by the Indian doctors that saw all the swindle develop from beginning to end:

            http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065

            Polio programme: let us declare victory and move on.

            “…Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received.”

          • Andrew Lazarus

            The reason incidence was directly proportional to doses received is that those were the people getting lab tests for poliovirus. The Indian doctors you like so much are rural doctors resentful that the big Western aid money went to a targeted campaign and not to general medicine (like their hospital).

            This is a very odd swindle that your own source has a circa 85% reduction in AFP (the more so that the 47,000 number appears to be from a multi-year campaign, but I’ve read inconsistent number on this).

            Let’s just take your numbers, though: why is it bad to trade 300,000 cases of paralysis for 47,000 cases?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The reason incidence was directly proportional to doses received is that those were the people getting lab tests for poliovirus.

            Exactly! By the pre-vaccine definition those cases would still be “polio cases” and the vaccine would be exposed as a total FAIL.

            Glad you finally got how the scam works.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…why is it bad to trade 300,000 cases of paralysis for 47,000 cases?”

            300,000 cases, as you all said, were “estimates”. Comparing imaginary figures with figures that are confirmed is stupid an leads to stupid conclusions.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Estimates vs imaginary. Nice trope there.

            Do you note even your source doesn’t have the temerity to claim there is no decrease in paralysis? That’s a Western antivax add-on, because in India it would have been a cause for hilarity. See also here.

            We had over 20,000 cases of polio-induced paralysis in the USA in 1952. Good luck finding where those are hidden today. (Hint: there isn’t enough NFAFP in America to compensate, especially since your claim no one could diagnose less common causes of AFP pre-vaccine is simply made up. How do you think GBS was ever identified in the first place?)

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Who in their right minds would change the diagnostic criteria in the middle of a medical intervention, except to make such intervention appear successful?

            That is the gist of the matter. You’ve seen it and you understand it but you can’t just let go of your pride and admit it’s all scam.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…We had over 20,000 cases of polio-induced paralysis in the USA in 1952. “

            The U.S. had 20,000 cases of paralysis, full stop. Cases were not lab tested for poliovirus at the time, therefore you can’t claim poliovirus was the cause.

            There were dozens of possible causes, including organophosphorate compounds generously used over people, food and property at the time.

          • kfunk937

            Very nice citation, thanks for posting it. It’s clearly written, complete and understandable by the lay public. I hadn’t seen it before.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You want children to get Guillain-Barré, autommune diseases (ASIA spectrum) or even death? These are incurable for life, not the mild chld diseases targetted by the vax industry.

            Perricone C, Colafrancesco S, Mazor RD, Soriano A, Agmon-Levin N, Shoenfeld Y. – Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA) 2013: Unveiling the pathogenic, clinical and diagnostic aspects. – J Autoimmun. 2013 Dec

          • Dorit Reiss

            It’s not clear that the flu vaccine causes GBS, but it is clear that influenza does. To protect children from GBS we should vaccinate. And most people do recover fully from GBS.

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The CDC is a source of policy and lobbied opinion, not a source of primary science.

          • Doris, you are really an interesting character. What reality do you live in? Seriously.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go-TIyJJcH8

          • Proponent

            Ooooh! A YouTube vid!

            I am going to make some popcorn and get comfy.. and.. suspend my disbelief so’s I can enjoy the moving pictures!

          • Dorit Reiss

            ASIA is not acknowledged by the medical community because it’s badly defined and not supported by data. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794485

            It was also recently rejected by NVICP. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-injury-compensation-and-autoimmune-syndromes/

          • Vacunas Autismo

            What matters is the scientific community.

            The medical communty does not practices science, for the criteria to diagnose and treat disease varies from country to country whereas science is universal and repeatable.

          • Mike Stevens

            It is clear that the incidence of these problems following natural disease is significant. Guillan-Barre follows natural influenza, and other viral and bacterial infections. Natural infections can trigger autoimmunity.
            The rate at which the natural diseases do this is much much greater than the risks from the vaccines.

            For instance, GBS following a flu-like illness is over 16 times more common than GBS after a flu vaccination.
            Autoimmune phenomena like immune thrombocytopenia is many more times likely to follow natural rubella than it is to follow MMR vaccine.

          • Graceds

            You’re assuming we have accurate rates of GBS after vaccination.
            I think that is a false assumption.
            Many are likely unreported.
            This nursing professor was left a quadriplegic from GBS from a flu vaccine.

            http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/October-2011-%281%29/Video—Flu-Vaccine-Reaction-Leaves-Former-Nurse-a.aspx

          • Mike Stevens

            The frequency of GBS following vax is less than 1 in a million.
            Yet I see from the first response to that anecdote you linked to was from our old friend Cia Parker, who boldly states:
            “This happened to both of my parents.”

            The plausibility of these fevered imaginings is zero.

          • Katia

            Oh, Good Grief Grace! You’re really reaching now! How many people do you know laid up with GBS symptoms? Huh? Huh?

          • Graceds

            Guillan barre is a common settlement in Vaccine court.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            You are far more likely to develop gbs from campylobacter gisease or wild influenza than as a consequence of vaccination. In other words vaccination is prophylactic against gbs.

          • Graceds

            Since Vaccine reactions often aren’t reported I don’t think that can be assessed at this time.
            Hopefully that can be changed.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Actually the literature is quite clear on this issue. Look back on my comments for details.

          • Katia

            Not the answer to the question. I know of one person who got GBS, and it wasn’t from a flu shot. Vaccine court has very low standards of “proof”, AND YOU KNOW IT! You just continue to lie, Grace.

          • Graceds

            Never happens.
            1/5/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 09-657V $300,000
            1/5/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-133V $80,000
            1/5/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-986V $70,000
            1/8/2015 Influenza (Flu) Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 14-158V $120,000
            1/12/2015 Influenza (Flu) Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-802V $165,000
            1/13/2015 TDaP Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 14-209V $100,000
            1/14/2015 Flu Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-73V $234,500
            1/14/2015 Influenza (Flu) Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-828V $75,000
            1/29/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-228V $140,000
            2/4/2015 Flu Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-274V $807,000
            2/6/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS), Chronic Demyelinating Polyneuropathy Case No. 13-768V $583,681
            2/10/2015 Influenza Vaccine, TDaP Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 11-760V $500,000
            2/11/2015 Tdap, Menactra Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-374V $100,000
            2/12/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-561V $131,464
            3/11/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 14-813V $225,000
            3/12/2015 Influenza Vaccine Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) Case No. 13-726V $400,000

          • Katia

            What do you mean “never happens”? DId I say that?

            http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program-facts/
            With a few exceptions, on every one of those points the process in NVICPis as easy or easier as the process in regular courts. In other words, it is a much better option for those with provable claims of vaccine injuries (though for a family with a suffering child it may not feel friendly – especially if family members are not familiar with the
            regular courts, or have a weak case). Let’s go through these one by one, and address their application to Holmes, as far as we can from the facts presented.
            A. In NVICP, a petitioner does not have a to show a product defect. …The fact that NVICP waives this requirement allows many petitioners who would have no chance in the regular courts to go forward.
            B. The program still requires that the petitioner meet the causation requirements it set.
            1. Showing a table injury.
            2. Off-Table injuries: today, most claims are not on the table of injuries. …For those, petitioners need to show that more likely than not the
            vaccine caused their harm. The standard they have to meet, however, is
            still less demanding than in the regular courts.

            And so on. I presume you can read, or get someone to read it to you.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Natural infections can trigger autoimmunity

            Therefore artificial infections (vaccines) can trigger it as well.

            Vaccines add an additional, stronger factor of autoimmunity in the form of adjuvants.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23557271

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (Shoenfeld’s syndrome): clinical and immunological spectrum.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24238833

            Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA) 2013: Unveiling the pathogenic, clinical and diagnostic aspects.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24238833

            Autoimmune (auto-inflammatory) syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA)–animal models as a proof of concept.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902

            ‘ASIA’ – autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants.

          • Mike Stevens

            As pointed out by Dorit above/below, ASIA is a faked conceptual syndrome, it does not exist.
            I have already said some vaccines can induce autoimmune phenomena (eg ITP), the point being that they do so far less frequently than do the natural infections themselves.
            So vaccination is preferable to infection, always.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Why should anyone believe that your unsubstantiated denial of ASIA is anything more than a knee-jerk canned slogan?

            Do you know what adjuvants are for? overstimulating immune responses, shills, with all the risks of autoimmunity involved!

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s not my “unsubstantiated denial” of ASIA, it is reference to a systematic review that was undertaken looking at all the published evidence for the syndrome.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794485


            Since the initial paper, over 80 publications have discussed ASIA. This systematic review examines the research that has been done to investigate whether ASIA is a broad umbrella term with little clinical significance, or whether there is some underlying mechanism which could be utilised to reduce the occurrence of adjuvant mediated disease. Twenty-seven animal, epidemiological and case studies were reviewed. Unfortunately, a robust animal model of ASIA using biologically relevant doses of adjuvants has yet to be defined. It is also apparent that the broadness of the current ASIA criteria lack stringency and, as a result, very few cases of autoimmune disease could be excluded from a diagnosis of ASIA. The current studies involving human cases are so diverse, in both external stimuli and in resulting conditions, that there is currently a lack of reproducible evidence for any consistent relationship between adjuvant and autoimmune condition.

          • Mike Stevens

            You don’t seem to understand a basic fact. The diseases are dangerous. We wish our kids to avoid getting them, so they don’t suffer illness.
            If the diseases are harmless or trivial, as you seem to think, then nobody would care about whether our kids had immunity to them, and whether this lasted a long time or not, would they?

            The whole point of a vaccine is so that we can give them immunity without ever having the dangerous disease. Letting a child gain immunity from catching the disease is irrational.

          • sabelmouse

            THE diseases? ALL of then? equally and for everybody in all circumstances?
            funny how people didn’t worry about the mmr/v group when we grew up, mikey.

          • Mike Stevens

            MMR/V diseases weren’t thought of as a huge problem, only because the 1000 or so deaths a year from them paled into insignificance compared with the tens of thousands of deaths from polio, diphtheria, pertussis and the like.
            Now, thanks to vaccines, we don’t have to worry much about any of these.
            I realise you and your anti vax ilk are working overtime to try and bring back the bad old days, but you will battle in vain.

          • sabelmouse

            yeah, right!

          • Verna Lang

            What sort of permanent immunity do you think you will get with exposure to Clostridium tetani? I guess death will guarantee that you or yours never suffers that agony again. Maternal and neonatal tetanus (NT) deaths were a huge problem that is being solved by vaccination and improved hygiene during delivery. The improved hygiene for births is still not possible when safe drinking water is still just a dream for many areas of the world. “WHO estimates that in 2013 (the latest year for which estimates are available), 49,000 newborns died from NT, a 94% reduction from the situation in the late 1980s.”

          • sabelmouse

            which is why it’s so hard to understand how the tetanus vaccine works.

          • Verna Lang

            Just because you personally struggle to understand a concept, doesn’t mean that the method of action of the tetanus vaccine is not known. Natural immunity to tetanus toxin, like survival from rabies, has been observed, but is extremely rare.

          • sabelmouse

            and?

          • Verna Lang

            Wow. Do try to keep up, sabel. In a discussion about permanent immunity, I was pointing out that tetanus infection does not result in permanent immunity. Given the extreme rarity of naturally acquired immunity that has been noted, the only effective immunity we have to the tetanus toxin is through the vaccine. If you want to roll the dice and hope that natural immunity will somehow miraculously kick in if you suffer a puncture wound and some of that ubiquitous C. tetani enters the wound, that is your choice. Just make sure that your medical and burial insurance are up to date so the taxpayer isn’t stuck with your bills.

          • sabelmouse

            all i said was ”which is why it’s so hard to understand how the tetanus vaccine works.” regarding the lack of natural immunity. you merrily assumed away from that but at least you got 2 wordy comments in based on that and will eat today.

          • Verna Lang

            You raised a point that if there is no natural immunity, then a vaccine couldn’t possibly work. In other words, you were trying to spread misinformation. In the case of tetanus and diphtheria, the toxin released by the infection works very quickly and overwhelms the body before the immune system can mount a defence. Dead or dying people don’t fight off infection. Presenting the immune system with the inactivated toxin in the vaccine in advance gives the immune system a chance to remember the exposure and mount a defence when it encounters the active toxin.
            Nice working in of that very tired accusation that I am doing this for money. Of course, no one could possibly disagree with your beliefs unless they have been paid. Too bad that falling back on that accusation just proves that you not only have an overinflated ego, but that you have no evidence to back your claims. No one could pay me enough to wade into your sewer of misinformation. I am doing this so the next generation doesn’t have to roll the dice with diseases that you are trying so hard to bring back.

          • sabelmouse

            having another convo with yourself i see.

          • Verna Lang

            Not with myself, but posting for the fence sitters who may be reading the comments. You are a lost cause that would never be convinced by evidence. But it is important that others who may be questioning vaccination don’t fall down your rabbit hole of misinformation and conspiracy theories.

          • sabelmouse

            lol!

          • Sia

            Also, MMR diseases along with Polio are candidates for eradication – this means gone from circulating in the wild world-wide. GONE!

            That means ZERO RISK from EITHER CHOICE. ZERO RISK FROM EITHER CHOICE – we can HAVE THAT.

            The forefathers could hold still for smallpox vaccine which was far more dangerous than today’s vaccines although still much safer than smallpox.

            As a result, it’s gone from the wild and is only in a few labs and only the military need get vaccinated for it – we can do the same thing for Measles, Mumps, Rubella and Polio.

            There’s no way to pay the forefathers back for doing that for us but we can make it so that generations after us don’t have to risk either choice unless they choose to go into the military. It’s that simple.

          • Proponent

            You’ve never shown yourself to be particularly earnest in these discussions, Sabelmouse.

            Took me but a few seconds to find the following..

            “How the tetanus vaccine works”

            … …

            Your post does underscore just how little you know. comprehend and understand, though. And does explain away your nonsensical posts/comments in these discussions.

          • Sia

            You know the rational thing to do if you don’t understand a concept is to defer to the experts.

          • sabelmouse

            for advice and information. never for final dissensions in matters such as these.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Appealing to “herd immunity” while more that 90% of the population at any given moment is not immunized is very short-sighted, to say it mildly. Not only vaccine-antibodies are not proven to prevent disease, but they also WANE in anything from 2 to 10 years depending on the vaccine.

          • Dorit Reiss

            I’m not sure what you base your claim on. Of course vaccines are shown to prevent disease. They don’t get out of clinical trials without that. And immunity for many vaccines is long term.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Vaccine-induced antibodies have not been proven to be protective. Trials
            with clinical endponts are necessary and they do not exist.

          • Mike Stevens

            “90% of the population at any given moment is not immunized”
            In literal terms that may be true, but that is only because many have immunity from previous natural exposure. For instance I have never been vaccinated against measles, but I am immune because I had it as an infant.

            All that is required to protect against a disease is for a proportion of the population to be sufficiently immune to limit the onward spread of that infection.
            For diseases like measles the figure is around 93%, for mumps it’s around 80% and so on.
            Everyone who has responded to these vaccines will have long term immunity, and those born before the vaccines were introduced will likely have had natural infection, bestowing long term immunity also.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Vaccine-induced antibodies have not been proven to be protective. Trials with clinical endponts are necessary and they do not exist.

            Secondly, whether protective or not, vaccine-induced antibodies WANE in anything from 2 to 10 years depending on the vaccine. Therefore if natural infection does contribute to lifelong immunity and herd immunity, vaccines can not.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Vaccine-induced antibodies have not been proven to be protective.”
            Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

            “vaccine-induced antibodies WANE in anything from 2 to 10 years depending on the vaccine.”
            Yes, duration of vaccine-induced immunity varies. In clinical terms, it is shortest for pertussis vaccine (4-12 years), as opposed to the waning of natural pertussis immunity which is about 7-15 years).
            For live virus vaccines like measles it is likely life long, and also for other vaccines like Hepatitis B.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?”

            Here, undocumented shill:

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X01002882

            “…It is known that, in many instances, antigen-specific antibody titers do not correlate with protection.

            so you always have to prove that your vaccine’s antibodies provide actual clincal protection, whether antigen-specific or not. You cannot just assume “YES” as the default position!

            This vaccine pusher, instead of proving his own dogmas requires me to prove them wrong! (Probatio diabolica). The burden of proving vaccine-induces antibodies provide protection is on you!

          • Mike Stevens

            Hmmm.. a throw away remark that antigen-specific antibody titres don’t always correlate with protection. That is true, but it doesn’t imply that antibody levels have not been proven to be protective, as was your very specific claim.

            You see, the way this “evidential claims” thing works is that all I have to do to show you are wrong is produce evidence where antibody levels HAVE been protective, not for you to show that sometimes they haven’t. Capiche?
            Like here for instance:
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/200/9/1390.full
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8712168
            http://hospitals.unm.edu/mds/unmch/research/documents/pertussis.pdf

          • Sia

            And of course, even if this weren’t the case, it’s nothing that we can’t fix.
            Boosters + PSA campaign to remind people to get them. Done.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’re telling us that your vaccines do not work unless I take the same vaccines. In the same breath you tell us vaccines are effective. You want to have your cake and eat it but liers are eposed by the contradictions in their discourse.

          • Sia

            Most rational people understand that there is a spectrum between perfect and useless.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “… is a spectrum between perfect and useless”

            And your remarks lie on the rightmost side of that spectrum.

          • Sia

            Insulting me doesn’t really change whether you’re right or not.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Oh the vicim that just called me “irrational” is bleeding!

            How bitter is your own medicine, isn’t it?

          • Sia

            Not bleeding at all. Just pointing out that there are certain things that don’t change facts: Insults and tantrums? Two of them.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “.. Just pointing out that there are certain things that don’t change facts: Insults and tantrums..

            So yours an insult, a tantrum or both?

            In any case – as per yourself – it didn’t refute my point that was:

            You’re telling us that your vaccines do not work unless I take the same
            vaccines. In the same breath you tell us vaccines are effective.

            and is still valid.

      • Graceds

        You missed the comment from the gentleman who said his child was injured by a Vaccine.
        Go read it a few more times so it sinks in.

        • Watson

          Jeffry John Aufderheide, the same gentleman who lied about his career in the Navy, also lies about his autistic child being a victim of vaccine injury.

          Read it a few more times so it sinks in.

          • Graceds

            You probably say that to all the parents of children injured by vaccines.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Autism is not a vaccine injury, since vaccines don’t cause autism.

          • Graceds

            So call it whatever you fancy.
            Vaccines can and do cause brain and neurological damage in some children.

          • Dorit Reiss

            If that’s the case, that’s extremely rare.

            And autism is not brain injury.

          • Watson

            Just this one. I’ve never met any other which since their numbers are legion, seems strange.

        • Dorit Reiss

          I addressed it.

    • Katia

      Gish Gallop! Do you live in Colorado?

  • Reality022

    Thanks to the editors of the Aurora Sentinel for this hard hitting, no punches pulled, editorial.
    The opinions expressed are quite correct and the “call a spade, a spade” frankness is very refreshing.
    It has, of course, stirred the hornets nest of the anti-science, anti-vaccine cult who are now babbling their delusional conspiracy theories and uneducated, low information opinions on the subject.

    As the editorial states, “Real scientists and medical professionals have been unequivocal: The purported danger of childhood vaccines are lies. Dangerous lies.”

    QED.

    • Tannim

      I suggest you read the utter destruction of their bullmanure below. Hard-hitting? Try finger-poking? No punches pulled? Try no punches thrown. Correct? Not even close.

    • The unanimity of scientific opinion is striking here. There aren’t any neurologists I”m aware of who accept the supposed link between vaccines and autism, or any epidemiologists, or any practicing immunologists. The few doctors who disagree (like Sears) make serious money from pandering to anti-vaccine parents, a conflict of interest that anti-vax commenters overlook with perfect regularity.

      • Vacunas Autismo

        Autism is poorly defined. It usually refers to the consequences of brain malfunction that start early in life. Since vaccines can cause brain damage and kids are pumped with vaccines early in life, it is highly plausible (practically unavoidable) that vaccines are behind many of the so-called “autism” cases.

        • MDBritt

          Only…vaccines don’t “cause brain damage” and kids aren’t “pumped with vaccines”.

          Start with a faulty premise, end up with a faulty conclusion.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Read a fk…ing insert of any vaccine, most can cause acute encephalopathy resulting in permanent brain damage.

            http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf

            https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

          • Richie Pasquini

            Read one of the countless studies that prove vaccines do not cause autism. Vacunas Autismo, autism is actually pretty well defined and understood quite a bit more than you think. I’ve worked at one of the best institutions, (The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia), with one of the largest autism research centers for over 11 years. It’s very very clear that vaccines do not cause autism. The physician who started this entire trend of blaming vaccines did so with a very poorly constructed, small and ultimately skewed research study. Eventually several of the 12 participants withdrew their claims and admitted it was basically fabricated. He lost his license to practice because of the fraud and damage he caused. If you knew anything about vaccine and prescription drug research you would know that your argument is invalid and baseless.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Read one of the countless studies that prove vaccines do not cause autism.”

            Yeah, start by studying the credentials of one prominent author of such papers, the infamous Paul Thorsen, wanted by Interpol, then try to repeat the word “prove” without your face turning into concrete.

            quote from FORBES:

            “…Thorsen as the mastermind of a fraud to convince people that vaccines are not causative in autism….Thorsen allegedly stole a lot of money. The money came from more than $11 million that the CDC granted to two Danish government agencies for research into autism and vaccines…”

          • lynneb

            First, you claim you “aren’t ignorant” because you don’t get your info from media sources. Then you start quoting media opinion pieces. Oh, the irony.

            Thorsen was a middle author on several papers — I’m guessing you have no idea what that means, so allow me to explain. He wasn’t the lead author, and he wasn’t the primary researcher. He contributed some to the evaluation of the data which was collected by others, so he got his name in the list of authors for the work done, but he wasn’t responsible for either data gathering or for all interpretation.

            And, his financial fraud was financial fraud. It wasn’t data fraud. The data have been examined by others, and were clean; the papers hold up well under examination by other teams in other countries.

            This is opposed to, say, Wakefield, who committed data fraud on several levels, and was directly responsible for the “papers” published — and the conclusions there have not held up at all.

            So attacking Thorsen is an ad hominem, attacking the man instead of the argument, and attacking Wakefield is not, because his fraud was the argument itself.

            I know this is probably beyond your understanding, but please try.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The criminal activities of autism denialist “scientists” is not a scientific issue, borderline. You’re so clueless you can’t figure out when scientific papers are appropriate and when you look stupid asking for them.

          • Linda Tock

            Poul Thorsen is wanted by interpol now? He’s a practicing gyn in Denmark. He’s not hiding.

          • Graceds
          • Linda Tock

            OIG != Interpol

            As I said, Thorsen is a practicing gyn in Denmark. He’s not in custody awaiting extradition to the US. I highly doubt Denmark will ever turn him over to the US.

          • Graceds

            No, Linda, OIG office inspector general, hhs
            This is from OIG HHS website.
            From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
            Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
            The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
            Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
            In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
            According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
            Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.

          • Linda Tock

            And yet the claim made by vacuous was that Thorsen is wanted by Interpol. That is simply not true, much like every other statement vacuous makes.

            Again, Thorsen is a practicing gyn in Denmark, and is not in custody or awaiting extradition.

          • Graceds

            It was a small error.
            22 counts of fraud and money laundering is not so small.

          • Linda Tock

            It illustrates that vacuous is incapable of being factual.

            Thorsens fraud had nothing to do with the data, its interpretation or anything which could affect its quality.

            And as I said, he’s not likely to be extradited to the US from DK.

          • Graceds

            Yes, of course.
            A man whose been charged with fraud is totally trustworthy with research on children and vaccination.
            I hope you have better judgement picking your babysitter.

          • Linda Tock

            You forget that he wasn’t the one responsible for gathering, interpreting or handling the data.

            So your analogy also falls short of the mark.

          • Graceds

            “Thorsen was a leading member of a Danish research group that wrote several key studies supporting CDC’s claims that the MMR vaccine and mercury-laden vaccines were safe for children. Thorsen’s 2003 Danish study reported a 20-fold increase in autism in Denmark after that country banned mercury based preservatives in its vaccines. His study concluded that mercury could therefore not be the culprit behind the autism epidemic.

            His study has long been criticized as fraudulent since it failed to disclose that the increase was an artifact of new mandates requiring, for the first time, that autism cases be reported on the national registry. This new law and the opening of a clinic dedicated to autism treatment in Copenhagen accounted for the sudden rise in reported cases rather than, as Thorsen seemed to suggest, the removal of mercury from vaccines. Despite this obvious chicanery, CDC has long touted the study as the principal proof that mercury-laced vaccines are safe for infants and young children. Mainstream media, particularly the New York Times, has relied on this study as the basis for its public assurances that it is safe to inject young children with mercury — a potent neurotoxin — at concentrations hundreds of times over the U.S. safety limits.

            Thorsen, who was a psychiatrist and not a research scientist or toxicologist, parlayed that study into a long-term relationship with CDC. He built a research empire called the North Atlantic Epidemiology Alliances (NANEA) that advertised its close association with the CDC autism team, a relationship that had the agency paying Thorsen and his research staff millions of dollars to churn out research papers, many of them assuring the public on the issue of vaccine safety.

            The discovery of Thorsen’s fraud came as the result of an investigation by Aarhus University and CDC which discovered that Thorsen had falsified documents and, in violation of university rules, was accepting salaries from both the Danish university and Emory University in Atlanta — near CDC headquarters — where he led research efforts to defend the role of vaccines in causing autism and other brain disorders. Thorsen’s center has received $14.6 million from CDC since 2002.”
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

          • Linda Tock

            I’m sorry, are you trying to use an opinion piece from rfk Jr as evidence? Especially one that cites himself, age of autism and safeminds ?

            That’s laughable. He’s not a scientist, and has no relevant education to be drawing such conclusions.

          • Graceds

            Kathy, you think you need a science degree to understand fraud indictments?
            That’s laughable

          • Linda Tock

            Harriet, I can tell you don’t bother to read your sources, or their citations, but that doesn’t surprise me.

            RFK Jr is woefully out of his depth when discussing epidemiology and biology.

          • Graceds

            Henrietta, good luck with the babysitters.
            RFK jr had experience with litigation of mercury contamination from coal plants.
            But you did have some A’s in school.
            Good for you!

          • Linda Tock

            Doris, litigation does not make him a scientist.

            Hope that Helps!

          • lynneb

            Many can, yes, in a vanishingly tiny percent of cases. And they do so at a rate with is well over 1000x less often than the diseases which they protect against, which is why they still make sense.

            Trying to “protect” kids against a miniscule risk by exposing them to a risk thousands of times larger is insane.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Underreporting is a known problem of any passive adverse event reporting system. It is estimated that VAERS only reports 10% of all cases.

            While reporting of infectious diseases is active and mandatory, reporting of vaccine adverse events is not, a move to intentionally conceal the really magnitude of the “vaccinosis” problem.

          • lynneb

            [citation needed]
            Vacu, I’ve seen this “statistic” thrown around by countless anti-vaxxers, and I’ve never seen it backed up. There is a problem with underreporting, yes; that’s been acknowledged for years. That only 10% of all adverse events are reported is pure invention, and in fact, you are also leaving out the facts which are also well-reported by the researchers who actually look into this:
            1. Most of the underreporting is nonserious adverse events, such as soreness at the injection site, or uncomplicated fever;
            and
            2. That there is also considerable *overreporting* for some vaccines, where anti-vaxxers attempt to game the system by getting people to report every and any even vaguely related or remembered “event.”

            Not to mention the fact that we don’t rely just on passive reporting any more; we also have active reporting systems such as the Vaccine Safety Datalink project. And all the detected serious events, which are all followed up, still tell us that vaccines are many orders of magnitude safer than diseases; and that the “vaccinosis” problem is still one of the anti-vaxxer fearmongering, not reality.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “citation needed”

            VAERS itself:

            https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

            The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events.

            What kind of mor.n dares to argue about VAERS without even visiting their website?

          • lynneb

            What kind of dishonest, ignorant idiot ignores everything else which is printed on that page?

            “”Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive
            surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes
            lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

            A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified
            vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.”

          • Sia

            So basically what is underreported is “Most people don’t bother reporting a sore arm.”, right?

          • Justthefacts

            You didn’t visit the website. If you did you would have to read this before proceeding:

            ” in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.”
            I think you missed THAT!

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          • zulov

            Vaers also admits that there is virtually no follow ups to any of the reports. Keep reading that site and read some of the serious cases if you care.

            Many pediatricians refuse to report cases to vaers. The United States has the highest SIDS rate in the first world and the biggest vax schedule.

            Either your head is in the sand or you are one of the many people employed by the vax industry to contain the online backlash to their barbarous policies.

            The people are not buying your lies. Your appeals to authority are ignored as they are fallacious and everyone is becoming aware of how corrupt all of the pro vax science is.

            You’re losing this fight. Find a job where you’re advocating something harmless and not pushing POISON to little children.

          • Justthefacts

            it is required BY LAW, for healthcare providers to report events to VAERS. Post your link where it say they don’t because you, or another anti-vaxxer, made that up.
            The SB 277 effort failed miserably. Over 90% of the U.S. is vaccinated and happy about it. You are the lunatic fringe.
            And we will be going right past your stupid and dangerous Ideas and will be getting the vaccination rate in the U.S. up with the other 100 countries that have higher vaccination rates than the U.S.
            You are delusional. You are a small group of crazies and we will dispel your deadly ideas.

          • zulov

            You stupid genocidal Nazi. Crawl back to whatever authoritarian cesspool you oozed out of. You can dream about your white coat utopia all you want. The truth is going to win and you will be out of a job. You sick f***.

            SB277 effort was disorganised and out of time. A much bigger fight is coming and you will not win.

          • Justthefacts

            Reducto ad Hilterum
            .
            You might as well just say “I got nothing so I’ll just insult you”
            I accept your surrender.
            .
            Also thanks for posting your fantasy about having a large following. Readers need to understand that all of your ideas are delusional.

          • zulov

            Keep dreaming you pathetic tool. I hurl insults at you because you deserve zero respect. Providing thoughtful fact filled arguments to deaf ears is a waste of my time. You are not a real person. You are an insider troll.

            As for being Hitler, you’re not. You’re just a propaganda swallowing lemming. Don’t flatter yourself – you are no evil mastermind.

            You are the one surrendering and I don’t care to accept your defeat as it is meaningless. You are the one failing to address the facts of vaccine caused injuries, scores of whistleblowers and hundreds of studies. Not to mention CDC corruption, billions in revenues, liability immunity, billions paid out by the federal vax court to those injured or killed by vaccines, including autism cases – just a tremendous amount of evidence of very serious risk. I am not going to educate you because if you were we’ll meaning, you would educate yourself. But you’re not. You’re scum .

            People with real concerns about vax dangers will do their own research and your snow job will always fail.

          • “billions paid out by the federal vax court to those injured or killed by vaccines, including autism cases”

            The vaccine court has never held that vaccines cause autism or awarded compensation for such an injury. This is a myth spread to create fear, which is why you cannot cite any such case specifically.

            The VICP has paid out billions for vaccine injuries–a grand total of $3.2 billion in a little under 30 years. (The program started in 1988.) If you know anything about liability, that’s an impressively small number. For example, take the period form 2006 to 2014, just eight years. In that time over 2.5 billion doses of vaccines were administered, and just over 2,000 petitions were compensated. That’s less than one injury per million vaccine doses. Safer than cars, planes, high chairs and Cheerios.

          • zulov

            It takes years to complete a claim process with the court – and lots of lawyer hours. It is a difficult process, and prohibitive to most people without resources, education or time on their hands. The amount of cases compensated is a small percentage of cases filed, and the compensation for DEATH is only $250,000. These are not trial jury awarded punitive damages – these are procedural and only meant to recover any cost of care. 3.2 Billion is significant in this case. The highest awards range into the low millions for long term care of children who are so neurologically damaged they must wear helmets.

            Again, there are hundreds of studies and well backed arguments that refute efficacy claims and safety claims of the vax biz, but too many people are easily herded and scared into lapping up the fear mongering that goes on about childhood diseases that are NOT lethal or very dangerous in the 1st world. This is done to protect a steady and growing stream of liability free revenues for the manufacturers.

            AND HERE IS THE LINK TO VAX court paying out for AUTISM.
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html

          • “It takes years to complete a claim process with the court – and lots of lawyer hours. It is a difficult process, and prohibitive to most people without resources, education or time on their hands.”

            The VICP pays for those lawyers (out of pharma pockets), so it’s actually much, much easier than regular court.

            If you want punitive damages, you can actually still go to regular court. A good example is Holmes v. Merck, out of Nevada–parents went to vaccine court and got compensation, then went to regular court and sought punitive damages on a misrepresentation theory (among others). Got discovery and everything. Lost, but lost in regular court with a punitive damages claim and discovery.

            Your link is extremely dishonest. The settlement was not for autism, which even that report admits right up front.

          • Justthefacts

            It looks like poked a fringer’s nerve. Are you a truther also?

          • zulov

            You wish people who questioned the establishment that employs you were the fringe, but we are not. Vax rates are dropping in all affluent and middle class communities because the people have the time and the capacity to do research. You’ve been employed or intellectually conscripted to push the status quo lies that have created a steady stream of liability free profits to Big Pharma.

          • Justthefacts

            You are delusional.
            .
            91% of the U.S. vaccinates and the number is growing. By definition, you are “fringe”.
            .
            Here is what the Pew research center says about your average anti-vaxxer:

            Men: 56% anti-vaxxers are men and 44% are female (compared to an average population ratio of 49% men and 51% women).

            Not necessarily parents: Having kids didn’t affect the likelihood of respondents to declare themselves against vaccines.

            In lower income brackets: People earning less than $25,000 a year are 50% more likely to distrust vaccines.

            45 to 54 years old: People in this age group are 26% more likely than any other to oppose vaccinations.

            Live in rural areas: Rural dwellers are 28% more likely to refuse vaccines.

            Non-college educated: People with a high school diploma as their highest education level are 11% more likely to be against vaccines.

            Don’t go to doctors:anti-vaxxers are 88% more likely not to have seen a doctor in the past year.

            http://qz.com/355398/the-average-anti-vaxxer-is-probably-not-who-you-think-she-is/

          • Mike Stevens

            Please continue posting.
            With every one of your incoherent, abusive insults you make readers of this debate appreciate the nature of the unhinged, antivaccine mentality.

          • zulov

            And how are you today Mr. Stevens?

          • Dorit Reiss

            I suggest readers carefully read the comment above – I will copy it in case the thread gets longer – and consider it. This is typical of SB277 opponents, and may be typical of Colorado opponents. Does this seem like the argument of someone who has facts on their side, or who has a position worthy of support?

            “You stupid genocidal Nazi. Crawl back to whatever authoritarian cesspool you oozed out of. You can dream about your white coat utopia all you want. The truth is going to win and you will be out of a job. You sick f***.

            SB277 effort was disorganised and out of time. A much bigger fight is coming and you will not win.”

          • ciaparker2

            It is because MANY of us are absolutely furious at this fascist attempt to force people to damage our children with vaccines. Each has his or her own way of expressing their rage at this abuse of our human rights. But it is absolutely true that a MUCH bigger fight is coming, and we will win. The Nuremberg convention established that free and preferably well-informed consent is required before any invasive and potentially dangerous medical procedure may be carried out. This effort to compel all children, and then all adults, to submit to being killed or brain-damaged in order to reduce the number who get usually mild and beneficial diseases is outrageous and motivated only by pharma profits. And you seriously think that Americans are going to permit that?

          • Dorit Reiss

            A. So you support the language above? That’s what you are saying?

            B. You don’t have a human right to send an unvaccinated child to school and risk other people’s children.

            C. The Nuremberg code, applicable to experiments, is not relevant to vaccines, that are tested. And children don’t have a choice either way. It’s the parent who chooses to leave them at risk of disease.

            D. I think the response to the referendum and attempt to recall Senator Pan is clear indication that the vast majority in California supports making schools safer from diseases, or at least does not oppose it.

            To remind you, school immunization requirements exist in every state. They go back to the 19th century, and are as American as apple pie – because your freedoms do not extend to infecting others with preventable diseases.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t care about the language used. Those who abuse others must expect them to react with the language of anger.
            Vaccines are dangerous. Any vaccine can disable or kill, and every vaccine has done so many times, some with great frequency. It doesn’t matter what Big Pharma says about their having been tested, they can all disable or kill, and if I don’t want to run that risk, at a time when one in forty vaccinated American children is diagnosed with autism, it is my human right to refuse them for myself or my child. The danger of death or disability from vaccine damage is far higher than that from the vaccine-preventable diseases, and regardless of whether or not it was, every person has the right to choose the danger he wishes to accept.
            The referendum had a very short time to collect an incredibly large number of signatures. We didn’t have to collect a fraction of that number to get cock-fighting on the ballot as a referendum (and we won, got it outlawed). The fact that so many tens of thousands DID sign it shows the way the wind is blowing, and once the unwillingly vaccinated kids who react with disability or death start filing lawsuits, we’ll see how the public reacts.
            47 states permit personal exemptions to the vaccine “requirement” for school, either religious or philosophical (basically the same thing). Jerry Brown wrote in a religious exemption at the last minute in response to public demand two years ago at the last attempt of the medical cartel to force vaccines on every schoolchild in California.
            Did anyone ever find a SINGLE example of an unvaxed schoolchild giving a disabling or fatal case of a disease he got to another schoolchild? No, no one ever did. Because this was a non-issue, a non-danger. Those who want the vaccines can get them and feel protected. If they don’t work, then there you go, why should you force someone else to risk their life just in case the vaccine fails to work as billed in your child, and he gets chickenpox or measles?

          • Dorit Reiss

            It’s problematic that you don’t care about the misuse of the holocaust language. I hope you at least don’t agree with the threats your fellow anti-vaccine activists made.

            Anything can kill. You can choke on food, break your neck by falling in a bath or anywhere. Serious harms from accines are very, very rare.

            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079

            School immunization requirements don’t prevent a parent from forcing the bigger risk – that of disease – on their helpless child. They just limit the ability of the erring parent to force that risk on the child’s classmates. You can continue not to vaccinate, but can’t send the vaccine-deprived child to school. Because you don’t get to make that choice for other famiies.

            The referendum required a tiny percentage of the vote – in a low-vote years. The collectors made untrue claims – like claiming HPV was covered by the bill. They still couldn’t meet the goal.

          • zulov

            Dorit, you vile dolt. The very reasonable and patient person above makes a very cogent argument about individual rights and the nonsense fear mongering hysteria of the pro vax FAKE movement. Instead of addressing that excellent rebutal, you want to continue the strawman non-issue of my having called one of the provax trolls here a Nazi? Are you really serious? My use of LANGUAGE is more offensive than the lie that vaccines are safe and effective? That thousands of vax injuries and deaths are RECORDED on file, not investigated, and the autism numbers are estimated by the CDC to rise in the next several decades to like 1 in 4?

            The Nuremberg relationship is a solid claim. Vaccines are NOT adequately safety tested in long medical trials.

            Vaccine inserts REQUIRE the pediatrician to make the parent AWARE of all the safety risks on the insert. These inserts list very serious side effects including anaphylactic shock, seizures and neurological damage. Even the manufacturers know that. But when you visit a typical provax pediatrician, they are NOT even aware of the ingredients in vaccines and they have NEVER looked at the insert! They just run off the marketing claim that vaccines are tremendously safe and effective.

            Here is the basic logic for you:
            1. If vaccines are effective you should never have to fear a disease carrier.
            2. If a person is unvaccinated, it does NOT make him a disease carrier.
            3. If a person is recently vaccinated, they are more likely to be a disease carrier and can infect imunocompromised people.
            4. If vaccines carry a risk that causes MORE damage than the disease it is trying to prevent, it is NOT morally sound to require the patient to take it!
            5. Invasive medical procedure without consent IS VIOLENT FASCISM!
            6. Every invasive medical procedures require a consent form, unless the patient arrives in ER incapacitated.

            You are not unintelligent I suspect, so you know all of this to be reasonable and true. But you insist on fascist policies. Only three reasons for that:
            1. You are a paid propagandist of the industry
            2. You are paranoid and under the influence of the fear mongering.
            3. You are a parent who risked their child’s safety by vaccinating them, was one of the fortunate people who are not damaged by the process, and now are demanding that everyone take the same risk.

            The first reason is despicable. The others understandable, but you need to acknowledge the rights of others and not be a fascist.

          • Dorit Reiss

            This is very inaccurate, aside from the problematic language.

            A. Inserts are not a source of informed consent – and they don’t require the doctor to do anything. Inserts are a legal document that follow FDA labeling requirements. Including, for example, listing any reported adverse event, even if it’s not caused by vaccines. Here is a useful discussion of inserts. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/

            B. Doctors generally know the facts about vaccine safety. They are not required to memorize a list of ingredients to do so. Just to know the facts. And they do. That’s why responsible doctors recommend vaccinating to anyone without a medical contraindication.

            C. Childhood vaccines are very effective. But nothing is 100%. The unvaccinated are at much higher risk of disease than others, and when they congregate they create a risk of outbreak (http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf). They are the most common victim of their parents’ error in not protecting them, true, but they are a risk to those who cannot be vaccinated and to the few that suffer vaccine failure.

            D. Shedding vaccine virus is not a serious risk. Shedding the wild virus, which the unvaccinated are more likely to do, is. http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/live-vaccines.htm

            E. Children don’t have a choice about medical procedures, so claiming “force” doesn’t apply to them. That said, school immunization requirements don’t force parents to protect their children from disease. They just stop the parent from sending the vaccine-deprived child to school and forcing the same risk on her classmates.

          • zulov

            Inserts are supposed to be available to the patient. Here is the information from the HEP B vaccine.

            17 PATIENT COUNSELING INFORMATION
            Information for Vaccine Recipients and Parents/Guardians
             Inform the patient, parent or guardian of the potential benefits and risks associated with vaccination, as well as the importance of completing the immunization series.
             Question the vaccine recipient, parent or guardian about the occurrence of any symptoms and/or signs of adverse reaction after a previous dose of hepatitis B vaccine.
             Tell the patient, parent or guardian to report adverse events to the physician or clinic where the vaccine was administered.
             Prior to vaccination, give the patient, parent or guardian the Vaccine Information Statements which are required by the National Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. The materials are available free of charge at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website (www.cdc.gov/vaccines).
             Tell the patient, parent or guardian that the United States Department of Health and Human Services has established a Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) to accept all reports of suspected adverse events after the administration of any vaccine, including but not limited to the reporting of events by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. The VAERS toll-free number is 1-800-822-7967. Reporting forms may also be obtained at the VAERS website at (www.vaers.hhs.gov).

            NOTICE THE ABOVE about the requirement that the doctor give a statement of information from the CDC about the vaccine. In the VERY LONG statement of info, there is a section about who SHOULD NOT get the vaccine:

            “Who should not get hepatitis B vaccine?

            Anyone with a life-threatening allergy to yeast, or to any other component of the vaccine, should not get hepatitis B vaccine. Tell your doctor if you have any severe allergies.

            Anyone who has had a life-threatening allergic reaction to a previous dose of hepatitis B vaccine should not get another dose.

            Anyone who is moderately or severely ill when a dose of vaccine is scheduled should probably wait until they recover before getting the vaccine.

            Your doctor can give you more information about these precautions.”

            THIS VACCINE IS FIRST GIVEN AT BIRTH!!!! There is virtually no way to tell if they have a life threatening allergy to yeast or any other component of the vaccine!!!!!

            NO PARENT EVER HEARS THAT FROM THEIR RUN OF THE MILL PEDIATRICIAN BEFORE THEY ARE TOLD TO JUST TAKE THE HEP B VAX!!!!

            PLEASE STOP YOUR LIES!!!

          • Dorit Reiss

            No, this says parents should be given the Vaccine Information Statemebt. That’s a different document than the insert, much shorter, and federal law requires that it be given. And it is.

            There is never a way to know if someone will develop an allergic reaction to something. But serious allergic reactions to hepatitis B vaccines are very rare – and when given to newborns in the hospital, they are in the environment best set up to respond to an allergic reaction.

            The infection is very, very dangerous to newborns. On the hepatitis b vaccine see:
            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/separating-fact-from-fiction-in-the-newborn-nursery-hepatitis-b-vaccine-for-newborns/

          • zulov

            You are losing this debate and deflecting as usual. The text I provided from the insert talks about the statement of info requirement, and the statement of info requirement is very long. It has a section about “who should not take the vaccine” and I quoted that section.
            HEP B is a blood transmitted illness, that means Sex or needles. If the mother doesn’t have it, the new born will NOT either.
            They give the vaccine at birth because at birth and your well baby visits are the best time to administer vaccines. The parents are overwhelmed and scared, the baby fuss is common and easy to deal with.
            Much more difficult to get older children and teens and adults to get vaccinated. This is the only reason to push Hep B at birth.
            It is dangerous to give incredibly high doses of neurotoxins (Aluminum, fermeldahyde, trace mercury) to tiny babies.

            HEP B information statement: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/hep-b.html

          • Dorit Reiss

            You incorrectly said the insert requires patient to be told all listed Issues in the insert. As I explained, those are listed whether or not caused by the vaccine. The section from the insert only requires that parents be given the VIS, which is already required under federal law to be given: the insert is not where this requirement comes from. And this does not, for example, include neurological harm: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/hep-b.pdf

            Yes, those within previous reactions should not get the vaccine – but that does not include newborns.
            Only those that had an actual reaction.

            The link I provided explains why newborns are given the vaccine and that you are wrong about modes of transmission.

          • zulov

            LOL. PATHETIC. Babies don’t have teeth to bite, or toothbrushes or razors. Stop it already.

            You’re referring to this text about other types transmission:

            “But the virus can be transmitted from one person to the other through a variety of routes that don’t involve shooting up, healthcare workplace accidents, or risky sexual activity. Viral particles can be found in other infected body fluids, such as saliva contaminated by bleeding gums or biting the inside of the cheek. Children can spread it to each other during close contact in a household or if one toddler bites another. Transmission can also occur when sharing a toothbrush or borrowing a razor.”

          • Dorit Reiss

            That’s for older babies. As explained there, for newborn babies the main concern is missing a positive mother through mistaken results. Not common, but possible, and if happens, a very high risk – v. a very safe vaccine. We all want to protect babies. The evidence is that hep b vaccines for newborn provides maximum protection v. hep b’s risks of liver disease and cancer at very little risk.

            That made enough sense to me to give it to my young baby. I’ve been learning and speaking about vaccines for a while and think I’m reasonably well informed at this point, and there was no question in my mind that giving him the vaccine that first night was the right thing.

          • zulov

            Here’s the thing Dorit. I will believe you now when you say you are a concerned mother. I am a father and this is not an easy “libertarian” issue for me. I am just as equally concerned about the safety of my children as you are of yours. And we have come to different conclusions about the practice of childhood immunization as it stands today. I will not continue to argue my point out of respect to you and your choice. You choose to peruse industry sponsored sites for your information, and you are free to do so. If you respect my choice, I have no problem with yours. That is the simple point. I am glad you feel good about providing your child with what you see is a safety measure against HEP B. We should all agree that parents are the rightful guardians of their children’s medical engagement.

          • Mike Stevens

            Quite right Dorit, and very astute and responsible of you.

          • Sia

            As for Dorit’s homemade apple pies do contain formadelhyde – 6.3 milligram- 23.3 milligrams for every kilogram of fruit.

            As for the alu, it is the the most common metal element and the third most common – I would be very surprised if it didn’t contain aluminum. There’s a lot in most soils, for example.

            Alu is not in the vaccines. Alu salts are – the distinction is important – both hydrogen and oxygen are explosive and flammable , after all. And yet…Oxidane which is a compound of the two is usually really not flammable. Mixing it with electricity is an exception.

            H2 + O + Spark = fiery explosion

            Oxidane (H20) + spark = …..damn…my lighter’s wet.

            Mercury is also not in vaccines and never has been. Again, the distinction is important.

            There are three major types of substances that are referred to as mercury. There’s elemental mercury which is the liquid metal in old thermometers. Then there’s methyl mercury which is the kind that bioaccumulates and is in fish.

            Then there’s ethyl mercury which doesn’t bioaccumulate and is in some vaccines.

            This is just as important as the distinction between H20 and H202.

            http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/whatsnew/whatsnew_fa/files/formaldehyde.pdf

            As for the flour, I’m not scared of flour. And aborted fetal cells are not in vaccines – they are the growth medium – in other words, Dorit used descendant cells as manure for the apple trees.

            Oh, aluminum. Looks like Doirt used vanilla flavourings.

            As for the human dna, most of us do sloguh a few cells off when we pick something off the tree.

            Dorit, you were doing so well with the apples and pastry and vanilla and everything – what did you go and add tuna for? 😉

            Up until that point., your figurative apple pie sounded quite tasty. Note that so long as we don’t have this too often – this is a perfectly safe pie – probably just as well that it comes in injectable forms though because it doesn’t taste too good.

          • zulov

            Ethyl Mercury = Thimerosal.

            Was in vaccines in large quantities and phased out in the early 2000s leaving trace amounts in that are still 10 times higher than levels allowed for drinking water.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36_qz2beMaE

          • Sia

            Duh….of course the levels are lower in drinking water. Just utterly irrelevant unless you consume flu shots every day by the gallon.

          • zulov

            Ok smarty pants, now think about it in context of a newborn baby as % of body weight. Its highly relevant. And you are injecting it, not ingesting.

            And didn’t you just get thru saying there is no mercury in vaccines? Yes, you did.

          • Sia

            Yes? So, there isn’t any mercury in vaccines. Talking about a mercury compound in vaccines. does not make ‘no mercury in vaccines’ false.

            There is no chlorine in your salt shaker but there is sodium chloride.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…So, there isn’t any mercury in vaccines…”

            The so-called “mercury free” vaccines contain mercury as well:

            DTAP TRipedia

            The vaccine is formulated without preservatives, but contains a trace amount of thimerosal [(mercury derivative), (≤0.3 μg mercury/dose)] from the manufacturing process

            “…Talking about a mercury compound in vaccines. does not make ‘no mercury in vaccines’ false..

            Absolutely and uttrerely, irrelevant weasle argument.


            Mercury poisoning

            Mercury poisoning (also known as hydrargyria or mercurialism) is a type of metal poisoning and a medical condition caused by exposure to mercury or its compounds.

          • Sia

            Alu is all around us – formaldehyde is made by said tiny babies.

            No mercury in vaccines whatsoever. 9th grade chemistry.

          • ciaparker2

            Yeah, everyone in my family has had severe reactions to vaccines, I had asked my baby’s future pediatrician a month before she was born not to give her the hep-b shot, as I had read it often caused autism, but the nursing staff gave it to her without permission at midnight the day she was born. And she reacted to it with vaccine encephalitis and autism.
            The hospital broke at least THREE federal laws, but no one cared. Broke the law requiring that permission be asked and obtained, the one requiring that they give the vaccine information sheet BEFORE the shot is given (they NEVER gave it to me, before or after, I guess it would have been embarrassing when they told me they had given it to her, and I said YOU WHAT???) And they broke the law requiring that they keep the brand and lot number of the vaccine given until she was 21 years old. So now she’s permanently damaged with low-verbal autism. Does anyone in the medical cartel care? About her or the rest of the one in forty American children now with vaccine-induced autism?

          • zulov

            I am so sorry for your story. There are some doctors who care and even some in the political establishment who do. I trust that one day humanity will look back on the autism epidemic with great shame. God bless you and your fam.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, I appreciate your sympathy. I agree, one day people will look back on this era with horror and disbelief, and say: WHAT disease did they think was so common and so dangerous as to justify causing neurological and/or autoimmune disease in HALF of their children from vaccines? And HOW could they go on believing the pharma party line year after year after year, while seeing the damaged children piling up all around them?

          • Sia

            I think “apathy” would come under the heading of “or at least don’t oppose it.,”

          • Mike Stevens

            “I don’t care about the language used.”
            Cia, you have previously shown that you don’t care about the lives of children, and also that you don’t care about using this sort of language yourself.
            We are not surprised.

          • ciaparker2

            Once again, I fear you are confused. I care very much for children’s lives, and am not surprised when parents say “You want to mess with my child’s brain and immune system and damage him for life because YOU’RE scared of measles and mumps? HELL NO!” What would you expect them to say? It is all VERY peculiar. Those who want the vaccines can get them. They should not try to force anyone else to make the same unwise decision because they’ve caved to being pharma peons. Again, the only reason you guys hold up is to prevent a serious or fatal case of a VPD transmitted by an unvaxed child to a vaxed one, or to an immunocompromised one whom someone has decided can’t get vaxed. Very peculiar, since the medical cartel crossed that off and it’s no longer a contraindication to getting vaxed. How strange that the whole lot of you has been unable to come up with a single heart-rending example to justify your fascist trampling of the human right to bodily integrity and the right to accept or refuse a dangerous and potentially disabling or deadly medical intervention!

          • Mike Stevens

            “I care very much for children’s lives”

            That would be why you said you would “relish” the return of measles to the USA when vaccination is halted?
            And why the deaths of 450 kids a year from measles was claimed by you to be “No big deal”?
            And why you said “Who cares if kids get pertussis”?

            Well I care, Cia, I care a lot.

          • zulov

            You don’t care about anything you lying sack of feces.

            If you want to read about the truth about “the measles” see this:

            http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/measles-perspective/

          • Mike Stevens

            “You don’t care about anything you lying sack of feces.
            If you want to read about the truth about “the measles” see this:”

            Why would I read what an antivaccine propaganda website says when i have the entire scientific publication repository of articles on infectious diseases to call upon as well as my own experience?

          • zulov

            Because you want to open your tiny corrupted clouded mind to the possibility that you are full of sh*t. That’s why.

          • Mike Stevens

            And what are you full of, zulov?
            Bile and evil humours?

          • Proponent

            Hmmmm.. I wonder..

            About Health | “A Quick Summary and Review of the Psychosexual Stages”

            “Anal Stage (1 to 3 years)

            Freud believed that the primary focus of the libido was on controlling
            bladder and bowel movements. Toilet training is a primary issue with
            children and parents. Too much pressure can result in an excessive need for order or cleanliness later in life, while too little pressure from
            parents can lead to messy or destructive behavior later in life.”

          • Proponent
          • Kiko

            Dorits homemade American apple pie
            formaldahyde, apples, flour, aluminum, sugar, human dna, aborted fetal cells, blend well and bake, comes in edibles and injectables. Manufactured by psychopath inc.

          • Sia

            …just get at least one signature this time.

          • zulov

            They got well over 200,000 in just two months, without any significant funding for most of it and facing hardcore mainstream media propaganda which went as far as claiming 1 of 2 people who get the measles dies.

          • Sia

            Yes, they got 200,000 signatures even with lying and said recall dr pan was a bigger fight which turned in zero signatures. By that logic – is a bigger fight.

          • amanda

            What law makes it illegal to not report a vaccine injury? Thank you.

          • Dorit Reiss

            https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

            “(1) Each health care provider and vaccine manufacturer shall report to the Secretary—

            (A) the occurrence of any event set forth in the Vaccine Injury Table, including the events set forth in section 300aa–14 (b) of this title which occur within 7 days of the administration of any vaccine set forth in the Table or within such longer period as is specified in the Table or section,

            (B) the occurrence of any contraindicating reaction to a vaccine which is specified in the manufacturer’s package insert, and

            (C) such other matters as the Secretary may by regulation require.”

          • Justthefacts

            The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) of 1986 requires
            health professionals and vaccine manufacturers to report to the U.S.
            Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) specific adverse events
            that occur after the administration of routinely recommended vaccines.

            https://vaers.hhs.gov/index/about/index

            Pro vaxxers do real research and know the facts.

          • zulov

            The law is unenforceable. The doctor decides if he/she feels there is causality and then reports it. Meaning it is up to the doctor. And many do refuse. Many of the reports are filed by nurses and patients. There is zero enforcement of this “law”.

          • Justthefacts

            Then we agree that events that are not reported are not reported because the attending doctor and all other doctors involved see no evidence that the event was vaccine related.
            .
            Yes, exactly.
            .
            That is perfect enforcement of the law. events that are not vaccine related are not reported. I do believe that is the exact point of the law.
            .
            What you are all about is when uneducated parents think they know more than the doctors and want it reported. Guess what? THEY CAN!!!! Anyone can report to VAERS.
            .
            So if its not in VAERS, the doctors don’t think it vaccine related AND the parents don’t think it vaccine related.
            .
            I don’t see any problems there…..

          • zulov

            The problem is REAL CASES of injury go unreported for several reasons.
            1. The doctor is smug, unaware of vaccine injuries and never looked at the insert. Doctors can be and often are EXTREMELY arrogant and lash out at patients that do not lap up their conclusions. They are people – not perfect.
            2. The patients are not aware of what VAERS is, or that vaccines carry risk of injury and trust their doctors one sentence treatment of the issue when they just throw out there that vaccines are safe and effective.
            3. In the case of SIDS, or any other serious debilitating injury, the parents grief is so high, it is less likely they will want to even look at the idea that their choice to vaccinate may have been the cause.

          • Justthefacts

            1. You don’t like doctors. That is clear. No wonder you are a smug anti-vaxxer.
            2. Doctor know a lot more about medicine and vaccines than you do and they know they are safe and effective. Perhaps your supposition are crap in the opinion of experts.
            3. Vaccines do not cause SIDS. In fact, the SIDS rate has been dropping constantly while the vaccine schedule has been increasing. ALL EVIDENCE indicates that vaccines may prevent SIDS. SIDS and vaccines have a “negative correlation”. I’ll bet you didn’t know that.
            Do you have any more uninformed observations to make?

          • zulov

            You childish arguments make it clear that:
            1. You are unable to think for yourself
            2. You lack the intellectual confidence and work ethic to weigh evidence and data on your own, so you desperately seek an authority figure to tell you what to think.
            3. You are far more interested in consensus than facts or truth.

            And here is a link to a study with a positive corrolation between higher Infant Mortality Rates and Vaccine doses:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

            “A scatter plot of each of the 30 nation’s IMR versus vaccine doses yielded a linear relationship with a correlation coefficient of 0.70 (95% CI, 0.46–0.85) and p < 0.0001 providing evidence of a positive correlation: IMR and vaccine doses tend to increase together. The F statistic applied to the slope [0.148 (95% CI, 0.090–0.206)] is significantly non-zero, with F = 27.2 (p < 0.0001; Figure 1)."

          • Justthefacts

            You ignorant arguments make it clear that:
            1. You are unable to think at all. You have not expressed one clear thought much less have the right opinion about it.
            2.
            You lack the intellectual confidence and work ethic to find evidence
            and data on your own on subject. Your crap is all over the place.
            3. You are far more interested in hearing you own voice than anything else
            .
            NEW FLASH – SIDS is not infant morality. Infant mortality is not SIDS. You don’t know the difference. You made the stupid, uninformed statement that vaccines cause SIDS when the correlation is the opposite, so you come back pretending that infant mortality and SIDS is the same thing
            .
            They are different things. SIDS in only part of infant mortality. infant morality is more than just SIDS. You are an idiot.
            .
            To top it off, You site a paper of documented lies. Did you notice that the paper was corrected, did ya? The correction is here:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3463891/
            .
            The author forgot to mention that those lies where paid for by the anti-vaxxers the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC).
            .
            They got caught lying about the funding. How typical.
            .
            What is the truth?……
            “The infant mortality rate in the U.S. decreased by 2.3% to a historic low of 582 infant deaths per 100,000 live births in 2014.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

            You are a lackey of the anti-vaxx liars and don’t even know it.

          • zulov

            You stupid moron. Why don’t you keep repeating yourself while you go in circles to make yourself feel like you have a logical thought.

            SIDS is sudden infant death syndrome. Unexplained and mysterious, supposedly. It is included in infant mortality, and in the U.S. makes up more than half of infant mortality cases.

            The non profit, non taxpayer funded, completely existing on donations group that you’re trying to vilify is a beacon of hope in a society preyed upon by scum like you and your employers.

            You are a disgusting corrupt halfwit. I am finished trading insults with you. There is no getting through that irresponsible, immature head of yours.

          • Justthefacts

            I’m sorry you are so angry about your source lying, but they did. 2014 is the lowest infant mortality rate in the U.S. in all history. I guess vaccines lower infant mortality. Maybe you should look up facts and not be the lackey for anti-vaxx groups.

            Even your new data is crap. In 2007, SIDS was only 36% of IM and now its even less.

            http://www.hrsa.gov/healthit/images/mchb_infantmortality_pub.pdf

            Is there any more incorrect information that you want to post?

          • zulov

            OMG! The NVIC contributed $2,500 to the study! $2,500!!!! What an enormous windfall for the researchers!!!
            You are so correct! Big Pharma sponsored studies never contribute that much funding to anything……

            Folks, this is how these professional bloggers and commenters operate. And how the industry at large operates.

            When a non-profit grassroots organization that has been around for decades as an attempted watchdog of the medical establishment gives a measly $2500 to a couple researchers for a statistical analysis study that finds unwanted correlations, they scream conflict of interest.

            Nevermind the revolving door of industry insiders at the CDC!

          • Justthefacts

            It does make you wonder why they tried to hide it and was forces to issue a revision. That is probably because this paper contains zero studies and very little reseach. It cost nothing to write. In effect, Miller and Goldman were paid $2500 to spend a few hours twisting data you can get off the internet to make a point for the NVIC.

            That explains why they tried to hide the money.

            Lets also not forget that another $500 came from Michael Belkin
            who is constantly trying to prove that his daughter Lyla died because of the Hep-B vaccine (it was SIDS). This makes it obvious that the conclusions of this paper where written before it started. Grow up and get real.
            .
            That paper is documented as biased tripe.

          • zulov

            Everything you just said is conjecture from your point of view that everyone and anyone who says anything against the myth of vaccine safety and effectiveness, is to be ignored and attacked. That’s okay. You just keep earning that marketing dollar from Big Pharma. We all have to earn a living.

          • Justthefacts

            No. It is not conjecture that the NVIP paid $2500 for the paper and another $500 came from Michael Belkin
            who is constantly trying to prove that his daughter Lyla died because of the Hep-B vaccine (it was SIDS).
            .
            These are documented facts. Right in your paper.
            .
            Do you think Michael Belkin would contribute $500 to a paper that says the Hep-B vaccine is safe and effective?
            .
            Again, grow up and get real.

          • zulov

            $3000 vs. $40 billion in annual revenues. Keep beating that dead horse bud.

          • Justthefacts

            $3000 proven to be spend on a anti-vaxx paper.
            vs
            $40 billion in revenues, nothing proven
            Your horse was never alive.

          • Graceds

            Think how much Poul Thorsen, CDC researcher was paid.
            “In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
            According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.”
            What do you suppose he was hiding?

          • Justthefacts

            How many times are you going to post this lie? You know Poul Thorsen is living openly in his home in Denmark. His was part of a Danish team and not directly employed by the CDC. The Danish police said the indictment was crap and refused to extradite. He live comfortable in Denmark and returns his calls. His office address was Kanalens Kvt 6, 2620 Albertslund, Denmark and he lives nearby. Not exactly hiding.

            He was a minor player who stole money. He didn’t fake any papers.

            Let subtract his papers and just looks at the thousands that he was not involved in…..

            …..and take another look at this paper posted here that was financed by the NVIC and Michael Belkin who is constantly trying to prove that his daughter Lyla died because of the Hep-B vaccine (it was SIDS).

          • Graceds

            He’s still on the Office of Inspector General’s wanted list.
            From OIG HHS website:
            From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
            Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
            The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
            Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
            In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
            According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
            Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.
            http://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

          • Justthefacts

            Fine. I won’t quote any paper he was involved with and you also discount the NVIC financed paper listed above.
            .
            Is that a deal or am I the only one with any integrity?

          • Graceds

            Truly, there is no enforcement.

            “The last vaccine injury [for my daughter] was within three hours of receiving a Tdap vaccine, and she had a grand mal seizure, she fell off the bed and hit her head. She stopped breathing while I held her head in my hands. Thankfully, she was resuscitated, and we went to the hospital in an ambulance. And while we were in the ambulance, I called our family doctor who had given her the vaccine, and I called his office and said, I want this reported to VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) as a vaccine injury.

            We went to the hospital, they knew it was a vaccine injury, I told them what had happened. It was months later that I realized that it had not been reported. When I called my doctor’s office, I said, why didn’t you report this, and they said, well, you didn’t bring her back here. They said, we didn’t have to report it because you didn’t bring her back here. I said, I didn’t bring her back there because she stopped breathing, we went to the hospital in an ambulance. And so they said, well, it was the hospital that should’ve reported it. So I called the hospital, and I said, well why didn’t you report it? And they said, well, we didn’t administer the vaccine, the administering physician should’ve reported it.

            So I called VAERS, I called Health and Human Services and the VAERS office, and I asked the woman who answered the phone, I said, so who’s responsibility is it to report vaccine injuries… and she said, well, either one. … And I told her the situation, she said either one should’ve reported. And I said, isn’t that mandatory, according to the law? And she said, yes. And I said, so what are the consequences when physicians fail to report? And she said, well, there are no consequences. I said, that’s not a law then. If there are no consequences, that’s a suggestion, that’s not a law.”
            http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/reporting-vaccine-reactions/

          • ciaparker2

            No, it’s not. It’s optional in the US, and it is NOT an infraction for a healthcare provider to fail to report a vaccine injury.

          • Justthefacts

            “The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) of 1986 requires health professionals and vaccine manufacturers to report to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) specific adverse events that occur after the administration of routinely recommended vaccines. ”

            https://vaers.hhs.gov/index/about/index
            You don’t even bother to check your crazy statements, do you?

          • ciaparker2

            All right, theoretically doctors are required now to report vaccine injuries, but most of them do not. Since they are protected from liability if a vaccine they give causes injury, it would seem to be academic.
            Although this law requires doctors and other vaccine providers to report hospitalizations, injuries, deaths and serious health problems following vaccination to VAERS, it is estimated that less than 10 percent, of all vaccine-related health problems are ever reported to VAERS

          • Justthefacts

            You are lying again. Your 10% is imaginary and came from nowhere. Moreover, its based on the belief that 9 out of 10 doctor break the law for no reason as you admit.

            There is evidence of multiple reports of the same injury In the VAERS database. That can be proven and provide hard evidence that there is over reporting, not to mention the frivolous reports that are all over the VAERS database. My favorite is when an autism activist named Jim Laidler once reported to VAERS that a vaccine had turned him into The Incredible Hulk. The report was accepted and entered into the database.

            You are a desperate lying fanatic.

          • David

            10% is a high number and there is zero incentive top report adverse events. This is why shills like “just the facts” (huh???) are so obviously wrong. The system is very demanding and to go against the system takes so much blowback–it is a wonder even one injury to a child is admitted. To go out of one’s way as a paid employee and admit there was a “problem” means grief means loss of time and possible investigation and doctors called upon to explain and forms and paperwork to fill out. Adverse reactions are reflexively denied over and over and we know this to be the case since we have been there screaming and saying there is a problem and NO ONE will listen. No matter what happens to one’s baby and the parent is the expert–not the dopes who run these facilities–it is always an “obvious” coincidence or “nothing” to be concerned about. By contrast, if one owns a horse and some drug is met with an adverse reaction–the horse is treated like gold and the poison stopped immediately. The stakes for horses are very high.

            The stakes for humans is impossibly low. No one cares. It just rarely registers. 10% report is way high., I think the real number is closer to 2%. 98% of the time, it is the “imagination ” of the mother or a mere coincidence that gets the rap. Not the poison or the people who inject them into our treasure.

            This must be true since so many people are offended that they never get any attention –their screams are never heard.

            People just want to believe no one is ever hurt because they want to live in a fantasy land. People who are victims would love to live a fantasy. We are here typing because we have been hurt so deeply and we want it ended. What a bizaree thing to lie about? Lying that our child was damaged when he is not damaged?? Who could do that? Lying that poisons cause poisoning is essential if you want to keep poisoning.

            To deny pain is easy if you have not felt anything. To fabricate pain to fabricate injury is impossible for those of us with thousands of dollars of medical bills and crippled children in our charge. We pay the bills since we have to. To admit responsibility means other people must pay to compensate for injury and to deny coverage is easy. State Farm will pay for your broken windshield since they expect a certain number of windshields to be broken. Damage is PLANNED into their system. By contrast, The vaccination schedule plans for no injuries so there are no injuries to be counted despite thousands of victims lining up.

          • Justthefacts

            You got nothing. 10% is a made up number that came from nowhere. Nobody has every been able to defend it 10% is solely in your, and other anti-vaxxers imagination. You don’t even realize that you are trying to say that 9 out of 10 doctors are lying and that is patently ridiculous.
            Well, not as ridiculous as your 98% numbers. Thanks for saying that. If you hadn’t, somebody might take you seriously.
            I always lover the “thousand of victims” claims as if there is actually a list somewhere. You and you imaginary, unsupported numbers.

          • Mike Stevens

            “To go out of one’s way as a paid employee and admit there was a
            “problem” means grief means loss of time and possible investigation and
            doctors called upon to explain and forms and paperwork to fill out.”

            Oh, you know that do you David?
            How many vaccine adverse event reports have you filed as a health care practitioner/doctor?

            FYI in the UK it is extremely simple, and from what I can see from VAERS reports it is similarly so.

          • David

            The process nowhere is simple but with limited compensation claims in England, many claims are filed. The cost of compensating the victims is very high in the UK and pressure is mounting to give up the insanity.

            In the US, there is not simply bias in the system. Again please follow my analogy. Busted windshields is a no fault circumstance so everyone who wants a windshield can get a windshield. An adverse reaction to an injection administered by a doctor means the doctor has made a mistake and harmed a child. Word that the children are getting shots and getting sick will kill the doctor and his business and ruin the lives of the drug companies. It is not just bad business–it is lethal

            Therefore admitting harm will not happen easily and all the adverse reactions will be blamed on everything under the sun rather than to blame the doctor’s supposed warranty that the injections are good medical advice. Hardly anything could be WORSE–(come little child–take this it is good for you!!)–only to have the child become severely damaged. Word of that happening is the worst possible outcome.

          • David

            But adverse reactions are almost NEVER attributed to the vaccine. So most adverse reactions are never reported. It is very, very rare for a child to get shot up with poison, have a horrible reaction and someone admits it happened. That is the way of the world. To say this is an honest system that looks after people and families and babies is a grotesque distortion of reality. The system is formulated to look after and protect the system.

          • Justthefacts

            So what you are saying is that the doctors, who know more than you do, don’t think a reaction is associated with a vaccine.
            .
            Exactly. The first hand expert makes the first call.
            .
            If the parents disagree, they can always file a report themselves. Nobody is limited from reporting. There is not a better system than this.
            You arrogant anti-vaxxers can’t hear yourself when you say “reactions aren’t reported because the doctor doesn’t think its vaccine related” – THAT IS A GOOD THING!!!! No every reaction is vaccine related. You “assume” all reactions are vaccine related because you are a fringe anti-vaxxer and everything in vaccine related in your closed mind.

          • David

            Wrong on all counts. There is no doctor that knows anything about vaccines or even basic biochemistry and the pediatrician is merely a system employee following orders and has no independent expertise of any kind in almost all cases. And faced with an adverse reaction, the doctor does not know the cause. Why should he? The system does not know the cause of ANYTHING? So how could such a person leap out of his seat and quickly conclude–“oh, I know why this child was harmed–I did it!!” You think that is going to happen? Are you familiar with the topic here? Do have have any sense of logic?

            No one is antivax–we are against a program that has no utility and is unsafe.

            We are surely not arrogant if we merely want to the freedom to say no and assume parental responsibility for our own children as we assume responsibility for everything else in our purview. By contrast, the system that demands obedience while admitting damage and danger only in the fine print is a system of tyranny.

            The decision to vaccinate my child was the worst decision of my life. Why might I “report” my knowledge, over 25 years ago, that my son’s life was severely altered? What do I get out of filing a report? How might the pediatrician’s office handle such a report? File it in the trash can–that is what would have happened. 95-98% of all cases of substantial harm are NOT reported.

            Your side is losing and losing quickly. The victims are too many and the benefit not proven at all. You could give up your stand now or wait until there are only a few left pushing the unthinkable..

            Your call.

            But you will not let us make OUR call.

          • Justthefacts

            Whats wrong with your argument / everything.

            First, are you saying that you know more than a doctor? I don’t thinks so but you sure think you can second guess them and make a lot of unsupported claims.

            Since you know more than the doctors, I’m sure you did a VAERS report. What is the number? Id like to read about it? You didn’t? i guess you are not that smart after all.

            91% of the country is vaccinated and the number is growing. Just this year it became mandatory in California. You are delusional and the lunatic fringe. That is just a fact. deal with the fact that most of the U.S. accepts science.

          • David

            An Outpouring of scientific opposition to the vaccination program is why today there’s so much controversy. 20 years ago Scientists were not speaking out so openly books were not published and popular Internet health websites describing the horrors of vaccination did not exist.
            But most importantly 20 years ago there was no expectation of an adverse reaction. Parents were not looking for the link . Similarly in the 1950s the medical mob was totally behind the safety of smoking cigarettes. So if you told your doctor that great medical professional that you were coughing has shortness of breath the last thing he would think of would be to blame the cigarette smoking because he knew smoking was totally safe if you told your doctor that great medical professional that you were coughing had shortness of breath Etc the last thing he would think of would be to blame the cigarette smoking because he knew smoking was totally safe.

          • Justthefacts

            To start with, there is next to zero scientific opposition to vaccines. You are thinking of a few chiropractors and quacks like Mercola who want your money.

            Second, anti-vaccine nutcases have been around for the the entire time there has been vaccines because nutcases have always been around.

            I like this example from the 1930’s showing how nutcases where trying to stop the smallpox vaccines (which eradicated small pox by 1980).

          • David

            Your demagoguery is disgusting as you trample over the bodies of so many thousands and thousands of victims who never had a chance against the poisons. To sit there and say that all the science that is totally opposed to these compounds is non-existent is some flight of fantasy. The competing medical opinion that most if not all vaccination is so widespread it is impossible to miss or dismiss unless one is simply just interested in ramming home a political point and forcing a point of view. I may be a political conservative but I would never say no one is a liberal, no one believes Obama is good, no one actually supports Hillary in her effort to destroy the country, etc. That is just blind arrogance. Yes, people believe in Obama against all reason and yes, they believe in poisons.

            But that does not mean there are other people who live and breathe in the country. Plenty of far smarter people who have been forced to pick up the pieces of children lives know the damage first hand since they actually know. No medical doctor even knows the basics. Having a system is so damaging since when the system is stuck on stupid it is hard to get it to change as quickly as they might.

            So test if I am right. Popular opposition to vaccines is exploding and it is so hard to home school one’s child and take social ostracism but lots of people do this and they do it with gusto. We have been burned and ruined by vaccinations and we want the best for our children. Natural health is huge.

            Name the person involved in health that is actually in favor of vaccines? You think it is just Mercola? It is like blaming Rush Limbaugh as the only person who does not like Obama!!! You are not a serious person and simply have no idea what is happening. Chat with your pals. We have them frightened to death. They think they will lose it all and quickly. They are correct. The tide has turned a long time ago and now very few people agree that the program as it sits is fine and dandy.

            The health conscious must be heard in America. It cannot all be about making everyone sick and miserable. We have a right to be healthy and have productive lives and that is what this debate is all about and why your side is losing so badly.

            Please if you love injections with the most poisonous compounds known to mankind–go right ahead. No one has a right to tell you to refrain from harming yourself. It is your life. But when I know my genetic and methyl markers and trust that these compounds will compromise my health, I have a right to decline those injections so I can live a healthy life.

            What gives you the power to force that I take the injection? Answer the question. I am CBS and COMPT and MRR. If I took the load my son was given, I would be fully autistic. I was lucky I was forced to take a lighter load some I am not so badly damaged. Why must your ignorant slobs be allowed to ruin the lives of so many millions?

            Mercola wants my money? No pal, stop it. Joe Mercola has never poisoned even one person. Trillions are at stake in creating disease like wildfire.

          • Justthefacts

            To summarize your post:

            demagoguery trample poisons fantasy ramming home
            blind arrogance forced Natural health is huge Mercola
            most poisonous compounds Mercola Joe Mercola

            Nice meaningless and emotional rant. It does not change the fac that you are still part of the lunatic fringe (your posts shows the lunatic part). The vast marjot of the U.S. supports science, and lets take a look at your favorite robber baron’s house built off profit from ignorance.

          • David

            It’s interesting that this blog bills itself as a great place to have a conversation and people on one side wish to have none of it empty name calling and insults denial denial and I’ll add nausea

          • David

            There are well over 139 documented deaths caused by the HPV vaccine alone and many thousands maimed. I challenge you to take your snarky attitude and your ignorance to just one of the victims and you tell them that vaccines are safe and listen to the response you get
            And regarding your bizarre attack against Dr. Joseph mercola please tell me how he would make one penny off of encouraging people to refrain from a dangerous activity? It is the sellers very obviously a profit from the sale of billions of dollars a poisonous compounds and those of us that caution against their use have no possible financial gain and boy is that obvious!!! You have
            Been crushed in this discussion and have presented not a single fact or logical argument

          • Justthefacts

            I do believe your post was filled with very descriptive and insulting comments. Just to list a few:
            .
            “Your demagoguery is disgusting
            no one believes Obama is good
            no one actually supports Hillary in her effort to destroy the country
            No medical doctor even knows the basics.
            You are not a serious person and simply have no idea what is happening.” QUOTE David.
            .
            I do have a name to call you – “hypocrite”
            .
            91% of the country has no problem vaccinating. The exception rate in California was only 3%. It is just a fact that anti-vaxx is fringe, by definition. Deal with it.

          • David

            You might think vaccines are popular only in the context of tyranny so that similarly to radical leaders can claim they get 100% of the vote. But tyrannical enforcement offers no fair public opinion on what is obviously a highly controversial topic. The parents that I know and they care deeply about the health oftheir children take the step to pay out-of-pocket cash for specialized Highly informed doctors and homeschool their kids when they can offer no proof that their child has done the vaccination campaign . That is a sacrifice very few parents are willing to make but those are the healthiest children in America and those of the parents that deserve our support

          • Justthefacts

            I accept that the tyranny of the majority exists. I do not accept that this is a highly controversial topic. 3% of the people screaming loudly does not make it controversial. It is only controversial to you and you kind. To the other side, your argument does not exist. This is not a political issues; it is science. There are not two sides. There are the facts and those who do not accept them.
            Frankly, your opinion is moot. Science is not based on opinions. Anti-vaxx beliefs are about as valid an argument as witchcraft as they are both based on the same lack of science. There is no controversy. Anti-vaxxers are simply wrong.
            Beating children, not using seat belts, not using car seats. not taking sick children to the doctor are all things that do not have a valid counter argument and have been made the law over time. Vaccines are next. This is the 21st century and this is called progress, not debate of opinions.
            You really need to understand your opponent.

          • David

            So regarding the scores of dead young women murdered by a dopey vaccine that has no scientific proof of efficacy and indisputable harm. What do you say to those victims ??? Since they are dead they get no cash payout. No apology. No nothing
            I know the family of a 13 year old victim of these crude and insane poison compounds and she has been made infertile for the rest of her life.
            One more time what do you say to the victims the parents of the murdered?
            Since you applaud tyranny no doubt you have no empathy.
            To say your side is scientific is a joke. Your side lacks even basic knowledge of biochemistry. Your side has lost. You are one of the last sychofants carrying water for these vanquished immoral pseudo thinkers with power and control over the people.
            You simply have never investigated the topic and know nothing about it.
            I implore you to learn about the scientific method and stop relying on the politics of ritual sacrifice for the supposed greater good.

          • Justthefacts

            That’s a rant with no evidence. None of that happened. Post links or VAERS numbers or you are a liar.

            That is a direct challenge. Lets look at you anecdotal and incomplete stories and see where they lead. Spewing anecdotal rants is NOT the scientific method.

            .
            Prove you know more about the scientific method than how to spell it or you are just a fanatic liar.

          • David

            There is a fringe group firmly believe is President Bush and the Mossad were responsible for blowing up the twin towers. No one gives this group the time of day. There’s no evidence to support such a position and if you do a blog to cater to their view perhaps only a handful of neo-Nazis is going to show up. By contrast say something positive about the current vaccine campaign and one will get Hundreds of impassioned debaters eager to discuss the topic with my group of microbiologist PhD pros and Scientists on my side and with your innuendo and insults on the other side and it goes on and on.
            One more time please allow the people who are health-conscious to be healthy and we’re more than happy to allow you and your family to inject yourselves with all manner of poison until you’re blue in the face. What part of live and let live do you not understand? Must we all suffer? why isn’t My informed consent valid?
            Will you ever answer!
            I expect you will not.

          • Justthefacts

            No, you informed consent is not valid.
            Vaccine exemptions run 3%. They could not get enough signatures for an SB277 recall petition. That’s how weak you are.
            .
            According to a YouGov pol. 10% of the U.S. believes 9/11 was a conspiracy. That’s right 3 times as many people are 9/11 truthers than are anti-vaxxers.
            .
            You picked a very bad analogy.
            .
            it is true. There are less anti-vaxxers than truthers and alien conspiracy freaks. Anti-vaxxers are even at the margins of the lunatic fringe. The only reason you don’t hear from them is that they can’t do anything about it where anti-vaxxers can risk public health on a daily basis.
            .
            Sorry, but you are at the fringe of the tin foil hatters. Make peace with it.

          • David

            After what happened to my son if I had a chance to have another child there is no chance in hell I will cripple another child because there is scientific ignorance or malevolence at the top of a centralized system and you are here to tell me I must cripple again or be persecuted or be prosecuted.
            Sorry. Not happening. I would vaccinate a child under no circumstances since I am pro life
            You do not have a charming attitude. You are a thug and lack decency..
            Your independent brain has been spoiled by the fluoride the government puts into the water and the poisons your doctors have injected into your tissues
            This is a national scandal. The living dead. Zombies chasing down the honest and healthy

          • Justthefacts

            SO, AGAIN, DAVID, WHAT IS THE VAERS NUMBER FOR THIS EVENT OR YOU ARE A LIAR.
            Science is evidence based. Being a nutjob isn’t but since you are now going after fluoridation, you have exposed yourself as a nutjob.
            Another hatter has arrived.

          • David

            Defending fluoride is your last gasp.
            No hope. I have worked hard to educate you.

          • Justthefacts

            You have told me everything you need to say about yourself.

          • David

            Lame personal attacks are all that is left.
            No science no argument no logic. People are on the radio arguing about school choice. Yes people need to be free to opt out of government schools and education is personal
            But what is more personal than biological individuality ? How can the same set of compounds pure poison or even not. Be beneficial to every baby in the world?
            This is all about the program and it is great to discuss biology and the program and not people you have never met.

          • Justthefacts

            Its not an attach. You have gone full tin hat!! You attack fluoridation, vaccines, public education and who knows what else. You have simply explained that you thought processes are defective and there is no talk to you.
            You are too out there form rational discourse. You can got now.

          • David

            There is no good defense for fluoridation of the public water supply of a vaccine program that has no rational cost benefit analysis
            U.S. Is one if the few nations backwards enough to fall for the scam of water poisoning and has a heavier vaccine schedule than any other nation.
            Therefore since I am. Or text about everything the U.S. Is dead last in infant mortality rates of autism rates of cancer worst life expectancy among the major industrialized countries all with dramatically more money spent. The worst possible outcome. Wasteful extravagant spending for the worst outcome.
            It is a national disgrace
            I have a right….. A genuine civil right to seek a healthy lifestyle for myself abd for my family without being corrupted by ignorant butchers posing as medical professionals.
            I follow only serious credentialed doctors not simpletons following orders from the cdc and other corrupt organizations.

          • Justthefacts

            You have the right to your looney tune ideas and I have the right to point and laugh hysterically.

          • David

            No you claim that the state acting without any knowledge of the consequences has the right to force my family to be injected with a grotesque combination of toxic compounds against known vulnerability to those compounds against my parental authority and in contradiction to my chosen medical advisors and against all reason and common sense for zero established reason. Only becAuse the state seeks to victimize everyone else.
            The mandate for the state to vaccinate is only at a time of a specific health emergency. There is no legal or medical justification for the current program. It is just something the state wants to enforce.
            Similarly. There is not one bit of evidence poisoning the water has any particular utility and there is only overwhelming evidence of harm.
            The fact remains this is all about state control with nit even a Kane suggestion this is helpful or necessary .
            And that is why the problem is going to be systematically ended .

          • Justthefacts

            Good luck with that “systematic end” thing. It won’t happen with a vote.
            Are you posting from an occupied compound in Oregon?

          • David

            10% believe we do not know therefore truth it is said. I referred to a specific theory that suggest president bush and the Mossod orchestrated 9/11. That is a fringe.
            But science is not an opinion poll

          • Mike Stevens

            “it is NOT an infraction for a healthcare provider to fail to report a vaccine injury.”

            It is Cia.
            It’s just that you erroneously assume every single vaccine shot causes damage and every single injection should be reported for some nebulous reason.
            However only a tiny fraction of shots cause side effects. The minor ones such as the “sore arm” are not usually reported, but more serious reactions usually are.

          • EricS

            Vacu, do you understand the difference between an adverse event, and an adverse reaction? While you are googling, I’ll give you a hint. One is related in timing only.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            With ZERO cases of polio n the US since 1995, the risk of an unvaccinated kid getting polio in the US is ZERO.

            You’re telling me the risk of encephalopaty and brain damage from a vaccine is thousands of times less than ZERO … can anyone get more moronic than this?

          • lynneb

            You are, put plainly, not only ignorant but an idiot.

            Polio is not gone from the world, like smallpox is (a true triumph of vaccination, that!). It is one plane ride away. There is never a “zero” chance until it is entirely eliminated, which has to be through vaccination.

            And the risk of encephalopathy and brain damage from the polio vaccine is so close to zero that you can’t fit anything between the two.

            ….It’s quite the Gish Gallop that you’ve got going here. Assertion after assertion after assertion of yours gets shot down, and not only do you never pause for a breath and think “well, if these points are wrong, maybe I should rethink my position” — you just gallop on to the next baseless assertion without even an acknowledgement that you might have been wrong at all. Do you genuinely think it doesn’t matter if you keep asserting false things?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            If you really believe your children are credibly threatened by diseases
            from 3rd world countries, then vaccinate them against yellow fever, tuberculosis and malaria too!

            You got no frigging idea of how to assess a risk/benefit ratio. If you’re a parent you should be declared unfit to make medical decisions for your kids.

          • lynneb

            Repeating your idiocy doesn’t make it less idiotic. Just a hint.

          • Justthefacts

            The reason the risk of getting Polio is zero is BECAUSE of the vaccine. In 2008, 350,000 people contracted polio worldwide. Now, its down in the 100’s just because of the vaccine.
            Get a grip on reality.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Let’s assume it was the vaccine, still the cause is irrelevant to the fact that TODAY, the risk of a complication by the polio vaccine is higher than the risk of contracting the disease.

            When the rusks equalize again then it’ll be the moment to re-consider a vaccine, but vaccinating where there’s ZERO risk of polio is very, very stupid and I’d say it’s child abuse (exposure to unecessary invasive medical procedures).

          • lynneb

            We call you ignorant of reality because you don’t seem to understand something very simple:

            The only reason why the risk of the disease is so low is because most people still vaccinate.

            As soon as people stop vaccinating the disease moves back in.

            Your “plan”, such as it is, is equivalent to telling people to stop using child safety seats in cars because so few children die in car accidents these days.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…The only reason why the risk of the disease is so low is because most people still vaccinate.”

            Really? then you must believe that the reason no one is getting smallpox is because most people still vaccinate too.

            Listen, moron, if there’s no circulating wild virus, whether you vaccinate or not the result is the same: no disease.

          • lynneb

            “Listen, moron, if there’s no circulating wild virus, whether you vaccinate or not the result is the same: no disease.”

            Yes, you are a moron.

            There is no circulating smallpox virus any more. There is no non-human reservoir of the smallpox virus — so complete, worldwide coverage of all humans with vaccination was enough to wipe out all circulating wild virus. And after that, there was no more need of vaccination for it.

            We still vaccinate for polio because it is not gone from the world. Multiple people have now pointed out to you, in this very thread, that there are still thousands of cases of wild polio in certain countries, and that the disease is only a plane ride away. It would be, and should be, possible to wipe out polio with complete vaccination coverage in exactly the same way that we did smallpox, but that hasn’t been done yet — and it requires that idiot anti-vaxxers get out of the way.

            Get out of the way and stop being an idiot, and maybe in a generation we genuinely won’t have to vaccinate for it any more!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…We still vaccinate for polio because it is not gone from the world.”

            If you really believe your children are credibly threatened by diseases from 3rd world countries, then vaccinate them against yellow fever, tuberculosis and malaria too!

            You got no frigging idea of how to assess a risk/benefit ratio. If you’re a parent you should be declared unfit to make medical decisions for your kids.

          • Katia

            Moron is the least of it.

            Although, to be fair, there are probably less than 100 cases in Afghanistan and Pakistan right now.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…is equivalent to telling people to stop using child safety seats in cars.”

            Oh no! the stupid comparison surfaced again!

            Safety seats don’t harm children, vaccines do!

          • lynneb

            Way to miss the point entirely, there, champ. See what justthefacts has said, if you cannot understand.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            When the accident rate goes to ZERO? what a moron! Perhaps you believe safety seats prevent accidents too! Put a safety seat in you car and drive carefree on the left side of the road! Bwahahahaha!

          • lynneb

            If vaccines caused the harm that you claimed, I would not support their use either. The fact is, you wildly – wildly! – exaggerate “harm” from vaccines, and continuously downplay and deny the actual and real dangers.

            Why you think this is a good way to deal with the world, now that I don’t know.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            I simply did my homework and decided that my kids are safer without vaccines. You do yours and reach your own conclusions. I won’t be bullied by corrupted politicians with no scientific credentials or background into vaccinating my kids. I don’t care if you’re convinced my arguments or not, I answered to your fallacies do that others may not fall in the same misconceptions that you did.

          • lynneb

            Funny how many anti-vaxxers think that filling their heads with junk on the internet equals “did homework.”

            Hint: I did homework. I did homework for 4 years as an undergraduate and 5 years as a grad student. I learned what was in the basic textbooks — and I read current research papers and learned how to interpret them, did lab work, sat exams, and designed my own data-gathering experiments and was criticized by people who knew what they were doing on statistics and interpretation. THAT is what “homework” is. What you’re doing? That’s ignoring the people with scientific credentials, it’s ignoring scientific data, and it’s being gullible to completely unscientific and false claims and then moving on to being an active menace to public health.

            You are only of benefit to others as an example of what people shouldn’t do.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…I did homework for 4 years as an undergraduate and 5 years as a grad student.”

            Certainly you were absent from class the day it was explained that the IPV cannot prevent transmission of polio. I’m convinced it wasn’t the only time you played truant.

            “…I learned what was in the basic textbooks.”

            Impressive, so you can now parrot third-hand accounts of the science! In contrast, I’ve learned what’s in the clinical trials and in the primary sources, perhaps I should now write a textbook for you.

          • lynneb

            Truly, the arrogance of your ignorance and your fundamental dishonesty is impenetrable.

            You have not learned what was in clinical trials and the primary sources — if you had, we wouldn’t have to have this conversation. You don’t even seem to be aware of what clinical trials exist, nor do you show any understanding at all of clinical trials in general, nor of what information has come out of them. You’re flying in the face of all the clinical trials, and you’re not even smart enough to be ashamed of yourself for lying. Gads, people like you genuinely disgust me.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            PUMED in on the internet, but it’ s not “the internet”. Your sources however do match your own definition. Quit bashing and hating yourself.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I simply did my homework”

            You had a grammar fail. You meant to say:
            “I did my homework simply”

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…As soon as people stop vaccinating the disease moves back in.”

            You just won the Moron of the Year Award for 2016!

            http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx

            IPV (Inactivated Polio Vaccine) does not stop transmission of the virus

            This is the vaccine used in the US and Western countries and it’s NOT preventing the spread of the disease.

          • Justthefacts

            That is a fallacy. if you don’t take the vaccine, the risk contracting the disease far exceeds the risk of a complication by the polio vaccine.

            You don’t make any sense.

            If you eat, the risk of a complication from eating is higher than the risk of starvation. If you don’t eat, the opposite is true.
            Get a grip.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…if you don’t take the vaccine, the risk contracting the disease far exceeds the risk of a complication by the polio vaccine.”

            That’s a slogan, not a data-based calculation of risk assessment.

            The risk of contracting polio will depend on the level of circulating wild virus in your area and its infectivity. This level can be assessed by the number of infections among the unvaccinated, which is ZERO for the USA, indicating the wild virus is as good as eradicated. The only risk remaining is the one posed by the vaccine.

          • Justthefacts

            The polio risk is ZERO in the U.S. BECAUSE of the vaccine. If you stop taking the vaccine, IT WON’T BE ZERO ANY MORE.
            .
            Your machinations does not change the fact that with no vaccine, there would be rampant Polio. With the vaccine. its gone. To can’t take credit for having the vaccine in your mindless argument to get rid of it.
            .
            You are living a fallacy.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…The polio risk is ZERO in the U.S. BECAUSE of the vaccine.”

            Your slogan contradicts another official slogan:

            http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx

            “…IPV does not stop transmission of the virus.

            What is keeping polio from being reimported into the US? not the IPV vaccine!

            You slogan slingers should read the official lines at least once to avoid looking stupid in your blatant contradictions.

          • Justthefacts

            Reminds you? Are all you decisions based on emotions and feeling?

            That explains a lot.

            If you have Polio before you get the vaccine, then IPV does not stop transmission of the virus. If you don’t have polio before you get the vaccine, then YOU DON’T GET POLIO!!.
            READ YOUR OWN LINKS

          • Katia

            Right, when kids start having polio again. Of course, all you self-centered AVs never stop to consider it might be YOUR kid who is the first patient to get infected by someone who carried it over here on an airplane. No, because you give them kale smoothies, which have a lot of anti-poliovirus properties.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Sorry but lynneb just won the Moron of the Year Award for 2016 .. you get a second nomination!

            http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx

            IPV (Inactivated Polio Vaccine) does not stop transmission of the virus

            This is the vaccine used in the US and Western countries and it’s NOT preventing the spread of the disease.

          • lynneb

            So once again, you have chosen the route of carefully cherrypicking what part of the page you read and ignoring all the rest.

            Again, really, you really think this is something for you to be proud of? That you ignore the fact that IPV is safe to extraordinary levels, as stated on that page, that it provides excellent protection against symptomatic disease, as stated on that page, and that active outbreaks are controlled with OPV but that all populations will need to be eventually switched to IPV to finally eradicate the virus — after which point, no vaccination will be needed, but until that point, children are still protected by IPV against their picking up polio from any active vector. Exactly as people have been saying to you here.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You further prove my point that it’s not the present vaccine what’s holding polio at bay. The present vaccine (IPV) does not prevent an individual from contracting poliovirus, becoming an asymptomatic carrier and transmitting the virus to others.

            Considering the large number of Americans that visit endemic polio areas like India, if the it truly were a viral disease we’d be seeing scores of infections among the unvaccinated, but it’s not happening, therefore suspicion of another (profitable) modern medical myth.

          • lynneb

            So you ARE actually proud of ignoring everything written which contradicts your assertions.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Like what?

          • lynneb

            Like:

            Safety

            IPV is one of the safest vaccines in use. No serious systemic adverse reactions have been shown to follow vaccination.

            Efficacy

            IPV is highly effective in preventing paralytic disease caused by all three types of poliovirus.

            Recommended use

            An increasing number of industrialized, polio-free
            countries are using IPV as the vaccine of choice. This is because the risk of paralytic polio associated with continued routine use of oral polio vaccine (OPV) is deemed greater than the risk of imported wild virus.

            However, as IPV does not stop transmission of the virus,
            oral polio vaccine is used wherever a polio outbreak needs to be contained, even in countries which rely exclusively on IPV for their routine immunization programme (e.g. the polio outbreak in the Netherlands in 1992). – See more at: http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx#sthash.BCkteE1P.dpuf

            I guess this needs to be explained to you? The IPV keeps kids from developing paralytic polio if/when they are exposed to it, but it needs to be supplemented or replaced with OPV in an active outbreak in order to halt any spread of the outbreak. This does NOT mean that IPV is useless, however, because the acknowledged risk is that kids can be exposed to polio by travel to (or travelers from) polio-endemic countries, and nobody (except, apparently, you) wants to find out about that exposure by their child developing polio paralysis.

            Too complicated for you? That’s why idiots like you should not guide public health policy.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            I haven’ t ignored any of that. I was ramming that info up yours.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Considering the large number of Americans that visit endemic polio areas like India”
            There is no polio in India.
            Hasn’t been since 2011.
            Wake up.

          • Katia

            And when people went to places with endemic polio “back in the day”, it was recommended they get an IPV booster. My husband got one to go to China about 15 years ago; my neighbor got one to go to Africa about 10 years ago.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            As I said (with reference from CDC), IPV is intended to protect an individual but cannot prevent infection and transmission. In spite of it polio was not reimported, as it should have been, exposing the fallacy behind its alleged viral nature.

          • Katia

            We all know you cherry picked that statement. Did you enjoy your pie?

          • zulov

            Katia, you’re obviously an industry insider, or your are just a weird psycophant of supposed medical authorities. It is you who is chery picking. Recent wave of gates foundation polio vaccinations in India paralyzed or disfigured 50,000 children. F*** you for not caring about that.

          • Katia

            Oh, this has all been debunked, both in real life and in this thread.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Another canned line with less substance that a fart in a typhoon.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Why is it “cherry picking” instead of simple a citation? In which aspect is the quote untrue?

            Put some substance in your whines because you’re looking stuuuupid.

          • Katia

            Here is some more from that link:

            IPV
            triggers an excellent protective immune response in most people. – See
            more at:
            http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx#sthash.hzgalDNg.dpuf

            IPV
            triggers an excellent protective immune response in most people. – See
            more at:
            http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Inactivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx#sthash.hzgalDNg.dpuf

          • Vacunas Autismo

            That’s not a scientific source. If you look at the actual clinical trials you’ll see the mere induction of reactive antibodies was tested. From this, the authors ASSUME the antibodies are protective, a claim that needs its own proof but has never been provided and never will because it’s simply false. All the vaccination policy is based on this unproven assumption, spreading ” well intended” harm and disease all over the world.

          • Katia

            Are you kidding me bub? It’s from the World Health Organization!

          • Katia

            Most of the US was immune! What alternative explanation do you have?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            How do you know they were “immune” as opposed to simply no longer exposed to the toxic agent?

          • Katia

            My God, a source from 19freaking60! 56 years have elapsed since that article was written. That was pre-Sabin vaccine, and only a few years post Salk! At that point, the US was just getting going on polio eradication. Come 1961, during the Sabin Sundays, everyone took the vaccine. My father would be 102 years old, today, if he were still alive, and he took it along with us kids.

            I’m aware of the change in diagnostic criteria. I’m fine with tightening things up, as more was learned about the disease. But that doesn’t change the fact that we are no longer seeing polio epidemics in the US.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…56 years have elapsed since that article was written”

            How many since Jenner started injecting infants with pus? yet you support that superstitious practice.

            The article is extremely relevant because it’s direct testimony of the vaccine/diagnosis scam tandem that what was going on at the time by the people directly involved, dipsh.t.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Polio has been renamed AFP, a simple administrative swindle by re-defining the diagnosis. The proof is the total number of AFP cases including polio has risen to an excess of 47,500 cases after the vaccine. AFP did not come from the blue, it’s former polio renamed.

            http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065

            Polio programme: let us declare victory and move on

            “…while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere was violated.”

          • Linda Tock

            No, polio has not been renamed AFP. Also, your quote specifically deals with non-polio AFP, which by its very definition is not polio,

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The excess 47,500 new cases of NPAFP would have been classified as “polio” by the pre-vaccine diagnostic criteria (clinical symptoms only).

            But you prefer to believe they came out of the blue rather than admitting your beliefs are magical thinking.

          • Linda Tock

            And clinical symptoms aren’t the end all of diagnostic criteria. Today we require testing to identify a virus or bacteria.

            Things we couldn’t do reliably in India for decades, due to the poor infrastructure, etc.

            Enteroviruses can also cause AFP.

            You’re a few crayons short of a box.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…And clinical symptoms aren’t the end all of diagnostic criteria. Today we require testing to identify a virus or bacteria.”

            I’ll make a map for you:

            a) before the vaccination campaign: polio = clinical only criteria (both poliovirus and NPAFP are labelled “polio”)

            b) after the vaccination campaign: polio = lab confirmed (only poliovirus is labelled polio).

            By virtue of a more restrictive diagnosis, a >> b whether the vaccine worked of not.

            The apparent drop in incidence is a consequence of removing NPAFP from the “polio” diagnosis. The fact that NPAFP increased spectacularly after the vaccination campaign confirms a simple reclassification took place.

          • Linda Tock

            Because they had no ability to test hundreds of thousands of samples for polio when polio was endemic. Thus relying solely on clinical symptoms. When the number of suspected cases dropped, it was feasible to test every sample.

            It’s not rocket science.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            No sh.t sherlock.

            If you’re aware that pre-vaccine “polio” diagnoses were bloated by misclassified cases of NPAFP (which later proved to be massive)… then how do you dare use those inflated numbers to pretend the vaccine has solved the “polio” problem? The problem was one of MISCLASSIFICATION and OVERDIAGNOSIS, not polio!

          • Linda Tock

            No evidence suggests massive misclassification, given the number of suspected polio cases annually

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The fact that the incidence of prevaccine “polio + NPAFP” is the same as the incidence of post-vaccine NPAFP suggests pre-vaccine “polio” was actually NPAFP.

          • Linda Tock

            Nope.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734678/

            200-400k polio cases annually, estimated by limited surveillance (underreported).

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Estimates by the pre-vaccine clinical definition that encompasses all cases of NPAFP. Switching definitions as it suits your point is not science, it’s crookery.

            Only a consistent pre- and post-vaccine definition can tell the truth about vaccine effectivity. The excess 47,500 new cases of NPAFP in post-vaccine India exposes the whole scheme and Indian doctors are already aware of it.

          • Linda Tock

            We don’t have 400k cases of npafp annually, so you’re still wrong.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Neither we have of polio, not now, not then. It was all NPAFP all along.

          • Linda Tock

            Nope. It wasn’t. But again, you don’t understand how disease surveillance works.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Clinical-only surveillance lumps all AFP cases into the “polio” grab-bag, tehrefore overreported and grossly overestimated. The clinical is THE SAME, possible causes a dozen.

          • Linda Tock

            “In those years there was no surveillance for polio; a sentinel surveillance system was operating but the numbers of cases reported were estimated to be about 10 per cent of the total cases. However, with the use of identical reporting system over the entire period the pattern was valid; only the numbers remained underestimated.”

            Again, you’re wrong. Underreported. Underestimated.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            It’s obvious you have no frigging idea of what the pre-vaccine diagnostic criteria were. A seagull would understand my point better than you.

          • Linda Tock

            That’s the data reported in the study linked. Just because you can’t undrstand it, doesn’t make it wrong.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…That’s the data reported in the study linked.

            Which refers to the clinical-only definition of “polio” that INCLUDED all non-polio AFP, and therefore was a gross overestimation.

            They were stupid then but you have no excuse to remain stupid TODAY.

          • Linda Tock

            Underreported. You have no evidence to the contrary.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Underreported cases include both poliovirus and NPAFP because the diagnostic criteria was the same.

            Therefore, underreporting doesn’t mean the cases were all poliovirus, they could just as well all be NPAFP. There was no way to tell one from the other.

          • Linda Tock

            Again, you have no evidence to support your claims.

          • “The fact that the incidence of prevaccine “polio + NPAFP” is the same as the incidence of post-vaccine NPAFP”

            This is not actually a fact. You would need numbers supporting this calculation for that, which you don’t seem to have. Why doesn’t that stop you from claiming it as a fact?

          • Mike Stevens

            I will make a map for you.
            a). Before vaccination: 200-300,000 cases of paralysis every year.
            b). After Polio eradication: Possibly 40,000 cases of paralysis every year (proven NOT to be Polio through virological analysis of all cases).

            Why the difference?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            (a) is a guesstimate while (b) are lab-confirmed numbers.

            Comparing apples to pears just underlines the shortcomings of your intellect.

          • Mike Stevens

            His box is entirely empty, IMO.
            Except for the frogs jumping around in it.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            With today’s diagnostic criteria all pre-vaccine “clinical polio” would be correctly classified as NPAFP and the vaccine exposed as a fraud.

          • Linda Tock

            And that’s patently incorrect and not supported by any reality.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Pre-vaccine diagnostic criteria were clinical only, therefore NPAFP is included for having the same clinical presentation as poliovirus AFP.

            Post-vaccine criteria is lab confirmed, therefore NPAFP is excluded.

            In view of the above HISTORICAL REALITY, comparing pre-vaccine guessestimates to post-vaccine confirmed data is an exercise of utter stupidity.

            The diagnostic shift alone explains both the drop in “polio” incidence AND the 10-fold surge of NPAFP.

          • Linda Tock

            And yet it doesn’t. 47.5k npafp cases now, 400k (underreported) polio cases then. Nope. The shift doesn’t explain it. Your math doesn’t add up.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Explain how clinical-only criteria, which misclassifies AFP by any cause as “polio”, can lead to underreporting through overdiagnosis.

            Your failure to see how pathetic your argument is, is pathetic square.

          • Linda Tock

            You have no evidence to support your claims overdiagnosis. The cases were underreported.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The underreporting affected both poliovirus and NPAFP because the criteria for diagnosis were the same. Therefore, “polio” was overdiagnosed in the underreported cases. All “polio” cases could have been NPAFP. The post-vaccine surge in NPAFP is evidence that this was the case.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Unsubstantiated whines again.

          • Linda Tock

            Let’s see your citations… oh that’s right, you don’t have any.

          • Linda Tock

            Still no evidence linked, I see.

          • Linda Tock

            Let’s look at your logic fail.

            Claim that 400k+ prevaccine polio cases are all NPAFP.

            Then claim that today’s 47500 NPAFP cases is an increase by 10x since the vaccine was introduced.

            That’s some sort of special.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            400k+ is a guesstimate based on overdiagnosis (clinical-only that misclassifies NPAFP as polio)

            47,500 are confirmed figures.

            Comparing guesstimates whose error is UNKNOWN to real, confirmed cases is stupider than stupid! But then again you’re debating in the stupid camp.

          • Linda Tock

            Underreported. You’ve given no evidence to contradict it.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Clinical-only criteria leads of overreporting of ANY disease, since it broadens the diagnosis to include diseases that are clinical similar to the target disease.

            Broader diagnostic criteria => overdiagnosis. You’re a “special” kind of person for failing to see the obvious.

          • Linda Tock

            And yet the literature specifically states cases were underreported. You’re an ignorant kind of person for thinking you know more than the study authors.

          • Mike Stevens

            Even IF those 47,000 cases of paralysis would have previously been labelled as “polio” (and that is not true; around 20,000 may have be due to coxsackie or other enteroviruses, no more than that), you have to explain why the other 257,000 cases of “Polio” paralysis have just magically vanished since the vaccination programmes began.

            Why has paralysis largely disappeared in the last 20-30 years from India? If Polio was merely renamed, they should still be seeing the levels that existed prevaccine (300k each year)

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Again, it’s 47,000 EXCESS cases, not 47,000 cases. Excess as in “cases above the incidence considered normal before”.

            Now try again.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Why has paralysis largely disappeared in the last 20-30 years

            from India?”

            Paralysis has SURGED 10-fold in India with the polio vaccine, shill:

            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/135/Supplement_1/S16.2TRENDS IN NONPOLIO ACUTE FLACCID PARALYSIS INCIDENCE IN INDIA 2000 TO 2013

            “…Although the incidence of polio acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) has decreased in India, the nonpolio AFP (NPAFP) rate has increased. Nationwide, the NPAFP rate is 11.82 per 100 000 population, whereas the expected rate is 1 to 2 per 100 000 population.”

            AND … NPAFP is linked to the polio vaccine:

            “…The incidence of NPAFP was strongly associated with the number of OPV doses delivered to the area. “

          • Mike Stevens

            Sigh….

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…you have to explain why the other 257,000 cases of “Polio” paralysis have just magically vanished since the vaccination programmes began.”

            Because as a guesstimate they were never there in the first place?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…your quote specifically deals with non-polio AFP, which by its very definition is not polio”

            Read the whole quote: “Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis”

            Which means clinical diagnosis of polio (prevaccine criteria) results in massive misclassification of NPAFP as “polio”.

          • Linda Tock

            Which is why we require testing in a lab now.

            400k cases annually – known to be underreported – it is impossible that they were all a misclassification

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You can’t request testing in a lab the 300,000 old cases, dumbf.ck. There was no “poliovirus”in them, just NPAFP.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Underreporting is perfectly compatible with misclassification, they’re two independent problems, the first relates to population surveillance, the second to the criteria for diagnosis.

          • Linda Tock

            And thus it’s impossible that 400k+ cases prevaccine were all NPAFP, and that now 47500 NPAFP cases represent a tenfold increase.

          • Mike Stevens

            Do you think constantly parroting your previously debunked lies about NPAFP will convince anyone?

            I responded comprehensively yesterday to this garbage of yours.
            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/aurorasentinel/editorial_mandatory_vaccination_reform_must_be_among_2016_colorado_legislative_goals/#comment-2435282789

          • Katia

            OMG, a germ theory denie!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            I was talking about a single disease not behaving as it should under germ theory. This is not challenging the theory but the disease, witless soccer mom.

          • Katia

            I’m a gymnastics mom, not a soccer mom! PLUS an RN with 40+ years’ experience in and additional education in immunizations.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Education? If you don’t read and understand the primary sources you’re not educated, but indoctrinated. There’s 10 “experts” like you under every unturned stone, like cockroaches, prescribing Vioxx like robots and killing people because their Pharma representatives tells them to.

          • Katia

            I’ve certainly read far more primary sources than you have. Your constant personal attacks are not exactly bolstering your case.

            Most of us like to run and hide when the pharma reps show up, and take their shtick with a grain of salt, if not more like a box of it. We’re not the ignorant idiots you think we are.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Bla bla bla soccer mom. You have less substance than a 3rd hand teabag.

          • Katia

            Look bub, I’m tired of you yapping about primary sources for other
            people to read, then quoting crap from the media yourself. And I’m
            sick of your name-calling! If you had a case, you wouldn’t have to do
            it.

            And oh, look! sabelmouse and Grace, my tormentors, have already upvoted you!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            My media quote addressed a criminality issue, not a scientific one as you falsely claim. You’ve reached new lows of dishonesty.

          • Katia

            Graceds, you said a day or so ago you have a “surfeit” of decency. Yet you upvote a poster who calls people cockroaches and killers. Have you no shame, Grace, you and sabelmouse, Shari March, bsf309, Cat and Liz Swarthout?

          • Graceds

            Your wearing that line out.

          • Katia

            Awww, Gracie! Just giving you a taste of your own medicine.

          • Graceds

            Says the one who calls people jag and jag off with frequency.

          • Katia

            That is not a profanity. I have posted about this before.

          • CharlieB1972

            I’d call it much more of a “veneer” than a “surfeit.”

          • Sherri Olson-Hewett

            Well sadly that 40+ years of experience hasn’t taught you to do anything other than blindly accept what Big Pharma tells you is safe. I’m glad your kids are ok. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone’s kids, even to prove a point. But just worry about your own kids and shooting them up every time the drug companies come up with a new product. I pray you don’t have any daughters. If you do, I hope you’ll really look at the damage that has been done to the girls who have received it. No one should DIE from a vaccine. The fact that over 100 girls have died so far ought to bother you at least a little bit.

          • Katia

            Your post is a bit disjointed. It’s not clear which vaccine you’re carrying on about.

          • Katia

            I think you should read this about the harm you’re doing your own kids before wasting time worrying about mine.

          • Mike Stevens

            Flagged for abuse.

          • Katia

            Thank you!

          • ciaparker2

            But don’t forget the tens of thousands of children in India getting acute flaccid paralysis from having had too many oral polio vaccines.

          • Katia

            No, because they got infected with a different virus.

          • Justthefacts

            No, because that is a complete lie told by you, an uninformed fanatic who is desperately trying to change the subject constantly to keep from getting caught lying.

            The children have been blood tested. THEY DON’T HAVE POLIO!!! That is a confirmed fact. That is why the FULL name of the disorxder is NPAFP or “Non-polio acute flaccid paralysis”. It is one on many other diseases that cause paralysis

            You are an overt liar.

          • ciaparker2

            What happened to my longer comment posted a few minutes ago? It’s gone. Many Indian doctors said that they thought these much-vaxed children were paralyzed as a result of their having gotten so many polio vaccines in the Pulse oral vaccine campaigns waged twice a year in Indian streets and door-to-door. I will remind you that vaccines depress immune function, leaving the patient vulnerable to catching other, sometimes fatal or disabling diseases. DPT vaccination was suspended during polio outbreaks in the ’50s because it was so obvious that children who had gotten the DPT in the previous month were much more vulnerable to getting severe cases of polio. Clinical cases of Hib meningitis quadrupled between 1940 and 1968, probably because the DPT, introduced in 1948 in the US, depressed the immune system of many children who caught severe cases of HIb meningitis as a result.

          • ciaparker2
          • Justthefacts

            You continue with your overt lies.

            You completely ignore the established and conclusive fact that none of these people have Polio. I repeat – BLOOD TESTING. BLOOD TESTING!!! THE BLOOD TEST SHOW ZERO POLIO.

            Is that clear enough for you to stop posting acedotial rumors and not the fact that THE BLOOD TEST SHOW ZERO POLIO. THATS WHY THEY CALL IT “NON-POLIO acute flaccid paralysis”.

            So now you back to another irrelevant story from the 1950’s because all modern science does not support your meaningless drivel.
            Of course you do…………..

          • Kathy

            You mean the NON polio AFP that is NOT caused by the polio virus because it is NOT polio?

          • ciaparker2

            I mean the disease which many Indian doctors think was CAUSED by the polio vaccine, either because it was really polio and the pharma industry is lying, or because the oral vaccine depressed the children’s immune system, allowing them to be paralyzed by a polio look-alike disease.

          • Kathy

            It’s maybe two doctors and it is non polio AFP.

          • Kathy

            There is no indication whatsoever that NPAFP has anything to do with OPV. Nice grasping at straws there.

          • Katia

            Lie! There were 8 cases in 2005 and one in 2009. Why do you guys lie about stuff that’s so easily verified?
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Add four years, irrelevant, the conclusion remains exactly the same. Your counterargument amounts to correcting a typo, nothing of substance in it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Because liars always lie.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Best slogan so far, slogan slinger!

          • Graceds

            Snort.

          • zulov

            Liar! The risk is not miniscule! That is pure industry spin. The risk of serious vaccine injury is far higher that the risk of death from a childhood disease.

            Go to vaers.org and read all of the reports for yourself. That is only a tiny percentage of all the cases that are linked to vax injury.

          • Linda Tock

            A report to vaers does not mean the vax caused the injury. Read the disclaimer sometime.

          • lynneb

            Thus speaks ignorance.

            Hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine have been given in the US alone. Out of those, there have been a few thousand credible reports of harm done.

            Compare that to the fact that even in the few years before vaccines were introduced, hundreds to thousands of children died every single year from these diseases — and that is after mortality started dropping because of antibiotics and iron lungs and more available hospital care.

            Infant and child mortality AND morbidity has continued to drop, with every vaccine introduced. If vaccines were so risky, we wouldn’t see that. But you are buried so deep in rage and delusion, I think you’ve lost sight of the reality entirely.

          • Justthefacts

            Have you bothered to look into how often this happens? Of course not. The injury rate for all vaccines fall below one in one million vaccinations which makes it the safest human activity ever invented.
            Sorry, but facts are facts. You don’t understand the science at all.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…The injury rate for all vaccines fall below one in one million . Vaccinations which makes it the safest human activity ever invented.”

            From the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/tetanus/downloads/dis-tetanus-color-office.pdf

            Risks of DTaP Vaccine

            …1 out of 14,000 children may have a seizure

            What is a seizure? https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003200.htm

            A seizure is the physical findings or changes in behavior that occur after an episode of abnormal electrical activity in the BRAIN.

            Brain damage!

            If you have any decency left stop putting lipstick on a pig.

          • lynneb

            Febrile seizure, which resolves cleanly and leaves no permanent damage.

            If you had even a shred of decency and honesty, you would stop inventing pigs.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “….Febrile seizure, which resolves cleanly and leaves no permanent damage.

            Yeah well, all damage caused by vaccines is always so fking “clean”… now seizures caused by measles are a threat to civilization as we know it and bla.. bla… bla…

            Double standards anyone?

            Deliver the “good” seizures to your own kids, keep away from mine.

          • lynneb

            The only double standards here are yours, when you use the feeblest of arguments against a known and proven medical intervention, but demand impossibly perfect 100% absolute “proof” of its 100% absolute perfection in order to accept any argument for it.

            And when you lie, and then accuse other people of lying. Or when you say incredibly stupid and ignorant things, and then accuse other people of ignorance.

            No-one has said there is no such thing ever as vaccine injury — only that, in defiance of your claims, it’s incredibly rare, unlike injuries from diseases. And seizures from measles, unlike simple febrile seizures, tend to be associated with permanent damage. It’s a shame you’re unable to tell the difference. I am genuinely worried for your kids, and I hope they have a chance to grow up smarter than you are.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…And seizures from measles, unlike simple febrile seizures, tend to be associated with permanent damage.”

            Any consumer product capable of causing brain seizures in 1 out of 14,000 users wouldn’t be allowed to market, let alone if the target population is young kids.

            However, if the product sports “vaccine” on the label, then suddenly, the seizures are not a hazard anymore but a “minor side effect” without consequence. Go f.ck yourselves!

          • lynneb

            Febrile seizures are common in young children. They are scary, but they resolve. And ANY fever can cause it — vaccination is one of the least of the causes. Letting your child become dangerously ill with a vaccine-preventable disease, that is a stupid, unnecessary and far higher risk, and will also often include febrile seizure.

            Calling it a “brain seizure” implies a whole level of risk that, with vaccines, doesn’t exist the way you claim. Not even close.

            The fact is, you are still trying to “protect” children from the wildly overblown ‘risks’ of vaccines by exposing them to the very real and serious risks of disease. That’s like trying to protect your child from being injured by their car seat by letting them stay unrestrained bouncing around the inside of your car. Except, of course, that in that analogy all you endanger is yourself and your child, and in real life refusing vaccines endangers other people, too, by providing disease vectors.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Calling it a “brain seizure” implies a whole level of risk that, with vaccines, doesn’t exist the way you claim.”

            On the onehand, vax pushers tell us how dangerous mild child diseases are because in rare cases they can cause seizures, then in the same breath claim an an injectable product known to cause seizures in 1 pout of 14,000 is perfectly safe.

            A special kind of jerkness is required to keep a straight face when caught in such a contradiction.

            “…you are still trying to “protect” children from the wildly overblown
            ‘risks’ of vaccines by exposing them to the very real and serious risks
            of disease.”

            Far from overblown, vaccine risks are all of the following:

            – Greatly unknown. Clinical studies conceal adverse events by using false adjuvants as “placebo”., which is scientific fraud.

            – Grossly underrreported. As a result of no reporting system (most of the world) and a passive reporting system (US)

            – Underacknowledged. As long as another probable cause is present, judges always decide i favour of vaccines.

            Regarding the alleged “exposing them to the very real and serious risk of disease”, Two further points:

            – The risk of a healthy person contracting infectious illness “X” cannot be calculated, fortelling “real and seriious disease” to a health y person is playing futurologist and fear mongering.
            – Most of child diseases are mild, not the “killers” the vaccine industry wants to sell us. Even desirable for the boost of immunity they bring to a weel fed child.
            – Infectious illnesses occur in rare “foci”, therefore exposure requires being on the wrong time on the wrong time and is extremely rare. Even if a healthy child is exposed, actual illness only occur in those weakened by a previous condition or by malnutrition.

            For all of the above, vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated.

          • lynneb

            How false and wrong your assertions are, here, and why it is false, and how your ignorance cripples your understanding, has already been explained to you multiple times.

            1. These are not “mild childhood illnesses.” They are very serious childhood illnesses, most of which killed hundreds of children per year and left thousands more with permanent disabilities — and this is out of a total population much smaller than now. The proportion of serious side effects of these illnesses ranged from 1 out of every 2 (pertussis in infants) to 1 out of ever 5 (measles) to 1 out of every 300 (varicella). In contrast, the very best ACTIVE monitoring of vaccine side effects turns up a serious side effect rate of slightly under 1 in 1,000,000.

            2. Mild side effects such as arm soreness and fever are underreported for vaccines. Serious side effects, there is no indication of underreporting.

            3. In the US we not only have VAERS, a passive monitoring system, we also have the Vaccine Safety Datalink, an active monitoring system, and these are supplemented by both passive and active monitoring in Canada, Australia, all the Western European countries, Brazil, Russia, and a few other countries scattered around the world. Your assertion that there is “no reporting system” for vaccine adverse effects or events in most of the world is grotesquely wrong and ignorant. Fact-check yourself, idiot.

            4. Far from “boosting immunity”, some few of the childhood diseases we try to protect against have long-term adverse effects on immunity. Measles can destroy the immunity to *other* diseases that a child has been exposed to, and leaves the immune system weakened for up to three years, for example.
            https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S43/10/03O18/index.xml?section=topstories

            5. All these diseases recur where vaccination rates drop below herd immunity levels. It is not rare, it is not unlikely, it is not even unusual. And measles is the most insanely infectious disease known to humankind; an unprotected person has a 90% chance of catching measles from a single exposure, and a single exposure can mean simply walking within a few yards of an infected person. Again, when you claim that these diseases aren’t likely to infect an otherwise healthy child you are making stupidly false assertions because of fundamental ignorance.

            The only reason diseases are currently rare, is because most people still vaccinate.

            You need to learn something real, and need to stop spouting dangerous nonsense.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “… They are very serious childhood illnesses”

            A pimple would be a very serious childhood illness for a vaccine pusher, if there were a vaccine for pimples.

            “… Serious side effects, there is no indication of underreporting”

            What would constitute an “indication of underreporting”? Your claim is purely assumption-based.

            Serious side effects are brushed off as “autoimmune diseases” an epidemic with correlates with the nr. of vaccine doses and has no other plausible explanation than massive immune interventions (vaccines).

            It is acknowledged by many scientific authors as ASIA syndrome. The industry PR hired hands s are very busy trying to discredit them, an indication that they’re on the good track.

            “…we also have the Vaccine Safety Datalink, an active monitoring system”

            The VSD is a secret, opaque and non audited system:

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/index.html

            How Can I Access VSD Data?

            From time to time, scientists (from outside CDC and outside the VSD
            network) are interested in using data from the VSD to look differently
            at vaccine safety questions. When possible, CDC tries to accommodate
            these requests.

            No public access makes the VSD as good as non-existing for what parent decisions are concerned.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “… All these diseases recur where vaccination rates drop below herd immunity levels.”

            Actually it’s the complete opposite, outbreaks occure in states with the highers vaccination rates:

            https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2013/08/08/the-states-with-the-best-and-worst-vaccine-coverage

            Mississippi had the highest vaccination rates for all three conditions,
            with 99.9% of children receiving the MMR, DTaP, and varicella vaccines.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/30/mississippi-yes-mississippi-has-the-nations-best-child-vaccination-rate-heres-why/

            Just 140 students in Mississippi entered school without all of their required shots.

            Despite overvacciantion (or perhaps as a consequence of it):

            http://www.cdc.gov/washington/~cdcatWork/pdf/pertussis_outbreak.pdf

            Investigating a Pertussis Outbreak in Mississippi

            Whoa! Now how does this fit into our belief system?

            How do you feel when your canned slogans crash with harsh reality?

            But here is the true reason why diseases recur despite having the hightest vaccination reate humanly achievable:

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/30/mississippi-yes-mississippi-has-the-nations-best-child-vaccination-rate-heres-why/

            (Mississippi) Its childhood poverty rate ranks as the nation’s
            second worst.

            Fighting poverty is the ONLY intervention that’s capable of preventing infectious disease, not vaccines.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            How does MS’s pertussis rate compare with other states? Answer: it is third best. First best is WV, which also has only medical exemptions. So, yes, for the mediocre pertussis vaccine, outbreaks still occur in states with high vaccination rates but less often than in states with low vaccination rates. This is not hard to grasp.

            I’ll only mention in passing that you gave MS’s MMR rate, while discussing pertussis, suggesting you haven’t figured out which vaccine goes to which disease. In this case, it doesn’t matter, since MS also has one of the highest vax rates for pertussis.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…yes, for the mediocre pertussis vaccine, outbreaks still occur in states with high vaccination rates”

            Thank you for confirming my pont.

            Ineffective + high rate of seizures = risk/benefit ratio to the Moon.

            Despite this fact parents are coerced to vaccinate under theat of vetoing their kids from school. Any intelligent person can conclude whose interests some rogue lawmakers are protecting here.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            It is impressive that you pack so many fallacies into one short post. Contrary to your belief that any vaccine that is not perfect is useless, the data show that more unvaccinated people get sick. So the vaccine is effective. Just not perfect. Neither are seat belts, child seats, or condoms. What conclusion are we supposed to draw?

            You say 1:14000 is a high rate of seizures. In that case what is the rate of seizures from wild diseases? It’s many times larger than “high”. Is it astronomical or merely huge?

            You would do better to try the vaccine/autism claim again. That claim is merely wrong. Your refusal to acknowledge the results of vaccines, often from data you yourself provide (Ukraine), is insane.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…You say 1:14000 is a high rate of seizures. In that case what is the rate of seizures from wild diseases?”

            You don’t inject “wild deseases” into health people, moron, you inject vaccines! and an ineffective one at that.

            End result: seizure risk = wild risk + vaccine risk. Duh!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..the data show that more unvaccinated people get sick”

            You’re saying the 4,510 suspect cases (clinical measles) in Mexico 2014 were not sick?

            Only the 2 that were lab confirmed were sick?

            If you’re not in the “confirmed” list your illness does not exist?

            Is hiding sick people under the carpet another “miracle” of vaccines?

          • Andrew Lazarus

            That is not what your table says. This is at least the third time you have had a reading comprehension failure (measles incidence in Ukraine being the most delicious). Should we translate to Spanish? to French (since we know you read that French paper you cited)? to Neptunian?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Whine noted.

            Have a good day!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “.. Febrile seizures”

            Read the f.cking document… nowhere
            it’s said the seizures are “febrile”, on the contrary, it can be easily derived that they’re NOT:

            … 1 out of 14,000 children may have a seizure; 1 out of 16,000 children may have high fever.

            Obviously, 16,000 fevers can’t cause 14,000 seizures. That would imply that most fevers lead to seizures, which isn’t true.

            We’re left with an UNDISCLOSED CAUSE of the vaccine seizures (and therefore of their true nature), a red flag for anyone in charge of a child’s health.

          • lynneb

            Febrile seizure, believe it or not, does not depend on the fever being unusually high. That is why it is differentiated from “high fever”, and this exactly illustrates, also, why people with no medical understanding should not read brief leaflets and assume that they have a good understanding of the issue. (That’s you, hon, in case you need that clarified.) Medical professionals do not leap to the assumptions that you do for a reason.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…believe it or not”

            My bulls.it detector just ran off the scale.

          • lynneb

            If you HAD a functional bs detector, you wouldn’t believe all the anti-vaxx bs that you evidently subscribe to, and we wouldn’t have to have this conversation.

            I’ll say this again: over and over you have spouted things which have been debunked, quite thoroughly, with reference to the actual science and law as well as with plain-English explanations of those. You keep repeating yourself anyway and making flatly false assertions in the apparent confident belief that you know what you’re talking about. This is not the sign of someone who has a bs detector. It’s the sign of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…over and over you have spouted things which have been debunked”

            Have you already debunked the fact that the strciter, virological confirmation criteria that was introduced together with the vaccine completely explains the massive drops in the incidence of measles, even if the vaccine were to be a saline?

            Let’s look at the measles statistics of Mexico 2014:

            http://www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/burden/vpd/surveillance_type/active/measlesreportedcasesbycountry.pdf

            – Suspected measles cases: 4,512
            – Confirmed measles: 2 (lab confirmed).

            Now let’s compare the situation before and after the measles vaccine:

            – Using the pre-vaccine diagnostic criteria, all of 4,512 suspect cases would have been diagnosed as “measles”. There would be talk of a massive outbreak in 2014.

            – Instead, using the post-vaccine criteria, only 2 of those 4,512 suspect cases is labled measles. What the heck do the remaining 4,510 cases suffer from? nobody gives a flying f.ck, they’re a non-issue!

            This way, a simple shift in the diagnosis achieves a whooping 95,6% reduction of incidence…. even if the vaccine were an injection of saline!

            The implication of the diagnostic restrictions introduced by the vaccine are mind boggling!

            It begs the question: How many “measles” cases were actually measles before the vaccine? Today’ s suspect/confirmed ratio allows us to make an educated guess of a mere 0,44% for the pre-vaccine incindece of true measles. Whoa! you’ve all been had!

          • lynneb

            Once again, you illustrate exactly why someone with precisely zero understanding of the medical field should not be making pronouncements on public health.

            If I explain this to you, what are the chances that you will take that on board?

            Hint: we do not bother with lab confirmation of most measles because we know from long and clinically-confirmed experience that measles is more contagious than any other disease on earth — literally so. It is assumed because it is safe to assume, that any person who develops the symptoms of measles after exposure to measles, has measles.

            The measles outbreak number of 4,500+ is even now classed as measles, if it involves the development of measles symptoms after exposure to a known measles case.

            Is this genuinely too complicated for you to understand, or do you just not care if you understand, you’re going to stick to your story no-matter-what?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’re trying to weasle out without answering to my questions:

            1. In view of the following:

            http://m.jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S17.full

            The surveillance definitions for measles were also revised. The clinical case definition and definition of a suspected case of measles remained the same

            when you rant about the allegedly “high measles incidence” pre-vaccine, how do you know the incidence of “true measles” as opposed to “measles-like diseases”, since the old criteria were clinical and have remained the same?

            2. If not measles, what conditions were the 4,510 “measles-like” cases sufferning from?

            3. What was the mortality among those 4,510 “measles like” cases?

            4. Why nobody gives a f.k about that huge epidemic? (hint: it doesn’t sell vaccines).

          • Vacunas Autismo

            From your own link:

            http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/febrile_seizures/detail_febrile_seizures.htm

            Most febrile seizures last only a few minutes and are accompanied by a fever above 101°F .

            So it’s not “often above 100°F”, lying bastrd, but most above 101°F

            A fever is considered “high” when >= 102°F (that is, above 101°F), see
            https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003090.htm

            Therefore, the large majority of seizures caused by the vaccine cannot be attributed to fever, whether high or low, and you’re exposed as a lying shill.

            Now bend over backwards until your head enters your colon again…

          • lynneb

            Oh dear, diddums, you are getting very abusive.

            And evidently you don’t mind ignoring all the other detail, like the fact that 2-5% of all children have a febrile seizure before the age of 5, that they are most often the result of an infection from an actual illness, nor that they resolve without any long-term issue or damage…nor the fact that you could find on Google, very easily, another large number of pages which also say that many febrile seizures are not accompanied by a high rise in fever. But I’m not surprised; you’ve already established a pattern of cherrypicking one or two sentences which you think support you, and ignoring all the rest, and of torturing any definition to suit your own ends.

            Note, too: there is evidence that timely vaccination reduces febrile seizure.
            http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1176205-overview

            Again, I have no doubt that you will ignore this and fall back on abusive language again.

          • Katia

            Getting abusive? He’s been abusive since he showed up!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…there is evidence that timely vaccination reduces febrile seizure.
            http://emedicine.medscape.com/..

            And???

            The large majority of seizures caused by the vaccine cannot be attributed to fever (as already explained) so your point is moot.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…believe it or not”

            Congrats! My bulls..t detector just ran off the scale.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Medical professionals do not leap to the assumptions that you do for a reason”

            A good doctor sticks to the precautionary principle. You’re not a doctor even if by chance you had a piece of paper saying so.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Febrile seizures were orders of magnitude more frequent than 1:14000 in the pre-vaccine era. What you want to do is freeload on the safety provided by everyone else’s vaccination: i.e., we’re keeping nasty germs away from your kids.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Febrile seizures were orders of magnitude more frequent than 1:14000 in the pre-vaccine era.

            Evidence????

            Seizures by the DTaP vaccine cannot be attributed to fever:

            http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/safety/side_effects/#dtap
            DTaP vaccine side-effects
            Common:

            – Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)

            – High fever, 105 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (about 1 child out of 16,000)

            Obviously, less fevers can’t account for most of the seizures

            Then what’s the mechanism of DTAP seizures?

            By looking at the severe adverse events, we find the seizures listed again, albeit it their most horrioble form: long-term, coma and premanent brain damage.

            Uncommon

            – Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
            – Permanent brain damage.

            Obviously, the DTAP mechanism for all seizures, both common and rare, must be the same …. which is no other than brain damage to various degrees.

          • Justthefacts

            You are not a doctor. Seizures a common in life and not an injury. You fully recover nearly immediately. The chances anyone will have a noticeable seizure is 10% in your lifetime for no reason at all.
            http://patient.info/doctor/first-seizure

            Abnormal electrical activity is not brain damage. Deja Vu is a brain seizure. Leave medicine to the pros and stop pretending you know what you are talking about.

          • Sherri Olson-Hewett

            Wow. I’m speechless reading your post. I hope you don’t have kids.

          • Justthefacts

            You need to be able to recognize fever seizures and know what to do. Any fever can cause them and there is no permanent damage.

            Everything I said is true and you need to know it.

            But you don’t. To quote YOU: “I’m just chelating myself and my daughter and we are getting better. And
            all of the autistic mothers in my group, their children are getting
            better too.”

            I wish you didn’t have kids to torture with quack treatments.

          • Sherri Olson-Hewett

            How is it a quack treatment if we’re recovering? I weighed 94 lbs and could barely get out of bed. Now I’m functional and on the road to recovery. If you were a decent person, you’d be happy for me and my daughter. But not surprisingly, your agenda is more important to you. Thank God we all found these “quack” treatments! For you to refer to them that way when you have absolutely no first hand understanding or experience with them is utterly pathetic.

          • Justthefacts

            Your kid would be recovering if you did nothing. That is what usually happens and autistic symptoms improve with age, That is the scam that charlatans pull. A number of people improve anyway and they point at them and claims successes.

            Autism is genetic. Chelation does nothing for it.

            It probably makes you feel better to impose quack treatment on your kid but that all it does. It makes you feel better because you think you are doing something. You are not helping your kid; you are just helping yourself.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..Your kid would be recovering if you did nothing.

            Are you a futurologist? This from a person that claims a healthy kid will die if you don’t medically intervene (vaccines).

          • Justthefacts

            Nope, and Nope, and Nope. Go build your straw man elsewhere. Here are the facts.

            The vast majority of medical conditions clear up without medical intervention.

            More than 10 percent of preschool-age children diagnosed with autism saw some improvement in their symptoms by age 6 and 20 percent of the children made some gains in everyday functioning, a new study found.

            http://www.cbsnews.com/news/some-kids-with-autism-show-improvement-by-age-6/
            Yes, about 1/3 of autistic children see improvement without any treatment by the age of 6. That comes in very convenient for the charlatans who sell quack. They will always be able to claim a 1/3 improvement rate.
            It’s a very old trick to pull on the naïve. Are you one of those?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…The vast majority of medical conditions clear up without medical intervention.”

            Then you should shift your concerns towards the conditions, including death, that are caused by medical interventions on “patients” (if you can call them so) that are perfectly healthy (vaccines).

          • Justthefacts

            you are just making Imaginary claims from a desperate person. You have zero evidence. On the other hand, the WHO documented that 145,700 people dies last year from the measles worldwide.

            Are you going to personally provide them with sanitation, clean water, and rich nutrition? You just want them to not get the vaccine and die?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…the WHO documented that 145,700 people dies last year from the measles worldwide.”

            Are you mentally impared to equate the living conditions in the countries where peole die of “measles” with the living conditions where they don’t?

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7853750

            The immune function and measles virus infection in three different socioeconomic child populations in Karachi, Pakistan.

            “…These results suggest that the living environmental conditions of these different socioeconomic groups vary greatly and hygienic conditions must influence the chance of encountering infectious pathogens including measles virus…”

            You should ask yourself why the measles vaccine doesn’t seem to work for starving Africans, Einstein, in spite of a coverage equivalent to the West, if not higher.

          • Justthefacts

            You didn’t answer the question.

            Are you going to personally provide them with sanitation, clean water, and rich nutrition? You just want them to not get the vaccine and die?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The vaccine is a scam that sucks up government’s resources that could provide them with sanitation, clean water and nutrition… the true solution.

          • Justthefacts

            So you would just prefer that the poor people fo the world die instead of getting a vaccine. So you are a racist that believes in eugenics. Not a surprise.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            The results of mass measles vaccination in Africa are already known: mass death by measles.

            Vaccines don’t replace water and food, morons! Stop bleeding the budgets of African countries so they can help their people, not your pockets.

          • Justthefacts

            see, you’re an idiot. You just assumed that all those people were vaccinated when the vaccination rate in the third work is low. You are just full of bad ideas you just made up.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’ve just won the Blithering Moron of the Day award, congrats!

            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/07/measles-vaccination-rates-africa-surpass-north-america

            Measles vaccination rates in parts of Africa surpass those in North America

            “..Good Governance Africa survey shows that 16 African countries have near 100% vaccination rates”

            In spite of it, measles mortality doesn’t drop. Africa is the evidence that the meaasles vaccine is a scam and it doesn’t prevent ZILCH.

          • Justthefacts

            “inparts” moron, not in all. what makes you think its only Africa. the number is “worldwide”. You ARE just a racists.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            DESPITE improved vaccination rates, the figure still stands at 400 a day.

            Despite = vaccination not working according to the vaccinology belief system book.

            But let’s make it another vaccine “success” story though, vax farts never smell.

          • Justthefacts

            You still think we are only talking about Africa, How cute.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Actually, the sentence ” 600 African children died every day” refers to Africa, Wisconsin.

          • Justthefacts

            Stupid and a troll

          • zulov

            Yes, yes you are.

          • zulov

            Do I detect a moment of self reflection? Congratulations!

          • Justthefacts

            We know your comprehension skills are poor since you are an anti-vaxxer, but it’s not necessary to confirm it constantly with really poor trolling.

          • Tony S

            Give him ‘some’ credit, it’s good that he/she is actually capable of introspection!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            What? Nutrition preventing mortality from infectious disease? Light up the stake, we’ve got a heretic!

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21868478

            2011 – Vitamin A supplements for preventing mortality, illness, and blindness in children aged under 5: systematic review and meta-analysis.

            RESULTS: 43 trials with about 215,633 children were included. … Vitamin A supplementation was associated with a reduced incidence of diarrhoea (0.85, 0.82 to 0.87) and measles (0.50, 0.37 to 0.67) …Seventeen trials including 194,483 participants reported a 24% reduction in all cause mortality (rate ratio=0.76, 95% confidence interval 0.69 to 0.83)..

            Africans, if you’re reading us please spend your meager budgets wisely: skip your meals and spend it on vaccines from Merck!

          • Justthefacts

            Sorry. You can NEVER make up for thinking vaccines are Homeopathic. You are a confirmed idiot AND a racists.

          • zulov

            Now you’re calling people racist. Congratulations you intellectual midget.

          • Justthefacts

            Actually I called him a eugenics racists since the things poor third worlders should just die from the measles instead of getting vaccines.
            147,500 people died worldwide from the measles and he wants that number to grow.
            How about you? Would you like a million brown people to die just to stop the measles vaccine?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…147,500 people died worldwide from the measles and he wants that number to grow.”

            Alright, you prefer to go “worldwide” in order to mix as many confounding factors as you can to muddle the topic. Old vax-pusher tactics.

            There are two areas of the world: the sufficiently fed and the pooorly fed. You can’t apply the epidemic criteria of the latter to the former, blithering moron, because chronic malnutrition is THE breeding ground of any infectious disease and vacines don’t prevent anything in malnourished areas (as I’ ve proven above and won’t bother posting again).

          • Justthefacts

            We understand completely that you want the poorly fed to not be vaccinated and die. That’s very clear. It’s called eugenics.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’re beating a dead horse. You’re out of neurons?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Justthefacts didn’t mention Hitler yet, buth she will. Her argumentarium is bottom feeding already.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The results of mass measles vaccination in Africa are already known: mass death by measles.”
            More blithering idiocy by the Vacuous one.

            Measles deaths in Africa plunge by 91%
            http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2007/pr62/en/

            Africa: Measles Vaccination Has Saved an Estimated 17.1 Million Lives Since 2000.
            http://allafrica.com/stories/201511130442.html

          • Reality022

            It is just the standard anti-vaccine cult ploy:
            “When you run out of information you can distort and misrepresent, just make something up and lie, lie, lie. Lie like there is no tomorrow.”

            Most of them have got this aspect of being a cultist down pat.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Did I read ESTIMATED?

            Measles deaths in Africa fell by 91% between 2000 and 2006, from an estimated 396 000 to 36 000

            Why do vaccine pushers always resort to own ASS-TIMATES? … because the real numbers prove them WRONG.

          • zulov

            Keep putting up funny memes you professional troll. Your bully tactics are an obvious indication of your intellectual weakness.

          • Justthefacts

            I was only doing it to the incredible moron Vacunas because he is sooooo stupid there is no reason to respond. Thinking vaccines are homeopathic and there is no such thing as airborne transmission of disease sets a new low bar for an anti- vaxx troll.
            If you want to defend him, I’m not surprised. You have said some very ignorant stuff yourself.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            In contrast, when asked for the scientific evidence of your canned slogans you remain as moot as a straight in an LGBT topic area lol.

          • Justthefacts

            You don’t say anything worth responding to. You are a troll.

          • Tony S

            It’s true, I do see a lot of these ‘childish’ memes from the professional trolls. It really gives some insight into their character and bullying tactics. It doesn’t go unnoticed; people can see through this. I can’t imagine any person with intelligence posting these silly memes. They also make fake twitter accounts that are intended to insult and bully; like the one for cia, suz, and David. School yard bullying at its best.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Umm, there are many places in the Third World that don’t yet have good vaccination coverage and the cases and deaths occur there disproportionately. The vaccine works great. Your brain, not so clear.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..the cases and deaths occur there disproportionately”

            There there’s lack of vaccination, the diagnostic criteria is clinical only as opposed to lab confirmed.

            The result is a gross overestimation of the actual incidence, but very convenient to sell the need for vaccines!

            This old WHO swindle is so engrained thati’s EXPLICITELY RECOMMENDED in the organization’s guidelines:

            http://www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/burden/vpd/surveillance_type/active/measles_standards/en/

            WHO-recommended surveillance standard of measles

            “Countries are advised to use the clinical classification scheme until their programmes meet the following two criteria:

            – low level of measles incidence;

            – access to a proficient measles laboratory (translation: WHO controlled)

            The laboratory classification scheme should be used by countries in the low incidence or elimination phase

            The WHO changes the diagnostic rules in the middle of the game, switching to a stricter diagnosis, inorder to make its vaccination campain appear “successful”.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            It’s funny how cranks who don’t think trained doctors can reliably diagnose measles to a high degree of accuracy without a lab test do think totally untrained and in some cases uneducated parents can determine the cause of their little snowflakes’ autism.

            This isn’t a swindle. This is the medical equivalent of the people who think there is a hidden part of the tax code that exempts you from the income tax if you don’t use Zip codes.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…It’s funny how cranks who don’t think trained doctors can reliably diagnose measles to a high degree of accuracy without a lab test

            Let’s look at the performance of “trained doctors” in Mexico:

            2014: http://www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/burden/vpd/surveillance_type/active/measlesreportedcasesbycountry.pdf

            – Suspected measles cases: 4,512
            – Confirmed measles: 2 (lab confirmed).

            The accuracy of your “trained doctors” at diagnosing measles by clinical presentation is, therefore, a whoping 0.04% !!!

            Who’s looking really really stupid now?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…It’s funny how cranks who don’t think trained doctors can reliably diagnose measles to a high degree of accuracy without a lab test

            Stupidity, ignorance, denial, all of it… what is your problem?

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2560776/pdf/10916925.pdf

            Page 861:

            “… The WHO case definition of measles requires the presence of fever and rash with one or more of the following symptoms: cough, coryza or conjunctivitis (2).

            However, these clinical presentations can readily be confused with other rash-associated conditions, particularly those due to viruses, such as roseola infantum, humanherpesvirus-6 (HHV-6), rubella, dengue and parvovirus.

            In the first 35 weeks of an enhanced surveillance programme in England and Wales (3), it was reported that ONLY 3.7% (126/3442) OF NOTIFIED MEASLES CASES WERE CONFIRMED IN THE LABORATORY.…”

            By switching from clincal diagnosis to lab confirmed you get a “magical” 96.3% immediate reduction in incidence … by diagnostic restrictions only … whether you also use a vaccine or a kiss in the butt!

          • Vacunas Autismo

            the WHO documented that 145,700 people dies last year from the measles worldwide.

            Well no, actually the WHO’s figure is an ASS-TIMATE.

            Kids don’t die frm measles unless they’re malnourished, and if they are then they will die of anytthing anyway since malnourished bodies can’t fight any disease.

          • Justthefacts

            We got it/. You are a racist who supports the eugenics of letting people die “anyway” just to withhold vaccines which you think are homeopathic. You don’t need to repeat yourself.

            You are a glowing example of an anti-vaxxer. Please continue with other lunacy.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            With the Hitler card you’ve hit the bottom of your argumentarium. It sucks to be you!

          • Justthefacts

            You are the one the brought up Hitler so, lets continue.

          • Kiko

            It is because they are what we call shills. People paid to comment on a certain subject to mislead and coerce opinion. Just look at their comment histories, article to article they roam posting comments to hide vaccine dangers and encourage vaccine uptake. They hide behind pretty pics like Cathy but are really fat middle aged cheeto munching mongers drooling gravy out of their slobbering astroturfing mugs. They are on here 24/7 and they hate autistic children.

          • sabelmouse

            what kiko said. some of them are also nasty people who’ve found a way to make money out of their desire to abuse.

          • steven_lockwood

            I wouldn’t be surprised if it was actually was MMS treatment she was using. they tend to call it something else so they don’t get charged with child abuse…

          • Justthefacts

            There is no telling what woo that woman and her friends have been sold. There are a lot of woo merchants pushing basic “chelation” to cure EVERYTHING. but is doesn’t and it’s not real chelation. Its more likely a “cleanse” being sold as chelation. since she is “chelating herself”, it can be real chelation.

            Real chelation is the the injection of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid into the bloodstream that requires a real doctor (or quack).

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…There is no telling what woo that woman and her friends have been sold”

            This from a homeopathic vaccine woo salesman. Your face is made of bricks!

          • Justthefacts

            Yes, you think vaccines are homeopathic.

            Please say it again. I wish discrediting anti-vaxxers was always this easy.

            Please, one more time.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            You’re whining for the second day in a row. Discrediting? yes, yourself.

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          • Kiko

            Safest human activity ever invented? Ha, safer than breathing, safer than pooping, blinking, thinking, drinking, seeing, peeing, dreaming creaming, pies that is, so vaccines are the safest things on the planet I guess. Twilight zone.

          • EricS

            Someone invented breathing and pooping?

          • Kiko

            Yes

          • Justthefacts

            I got some bad news for ya, ace. You didn’t invent breathing or pooping, blinking, thinking, drinking, seeing, peeing, or dreaming creaming pies. That stuff is evolutionary. It’s natural. It may amaze you so much that you think you invented it, but you didn’t. You can do that naturally (I hope).
            “Inventing” are for people who think and accomplish things. That is not you……..

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…That stuff is evolutionary. It’s natural.”

            So is the immune system that has evolved for millions of years, Einstein, yet you believe it’s defective and can’t function properly without vaccine homeopathic quakery.

          • Justthefacts

            Hey moron, you just copied this from one of my posts:

            “…The vast majority of medical conditions clear up without medical intervention”
            So apparently you are too stupid to remember what you just typed five minutes ago. Try to keep your thoughts straight.
            So you think vaccines are “homeopathy’? Are you really that stupid. Honest question. Are you that stupid?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…So you think vaccines are “homeopathy’?

            Vaccination and homeopathy are based on the same principle: what causes a disease will cure (prevent) the disease in smaller doses

            But while homeopathy is placebo, vaccination is worse because the diluted cause (the antigen) is mixed with a long list of both controlled and uncontrolled substances (adjuvants, extraneous proteins, neurotoxins…) that cause random toxic reactions and random antibodies that may damage the patient’s own tissues… for life (autoimmune diseases).

          • Justthefacts

            You are the dumbest person I have ever seen on any board. You probably can’t even understand all the words. You not only stupid, you are proud of it.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            I appreciate your capitulation, albeit a bit whiny at that.

          • Justthefacts

            Nope, you are the dumbest person I have ever seen. You don’t know the difference between vaccines and homeopathy.
            Please let me keep pointing that out.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Enlighten us, prove your hindtelligence.

          • Justthefacts

            I am by not engaging with your stupidity anymore.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            How long is your whiny capitulation going to be? have you got enough kleenex?

          • Justthefacts

            Mr. homeopathic vaccines is still posting stupid stuff.

          • Sia

            No. I’m pretty sure people with intellectual disability are smarter than anti-vaxxers.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You are the dumbest person I have ever seen on any board”
            Hang on… there is always eggman2 and Lowell Hubbs to provide the Vacuous one with stiff competition.

          • Justthefacts

            it would be a good debate to argue of the dumbest anti-vaxxer on the internet but I think Vacunas has an edge. Vacunas actually thinks vaccines work homeopathically. On their worse day, eggman2 and Lowell Hubbs wouldn’t even try to sell that crap.
            I’m not kidding. Do you have a dumber line from someone else?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Vacunas actually thinks vaccines work homeopathically.”

            Quote me where I said that vaccines “work”, blithering moron.

          • Justthefacts

            Poor Mr. homeopathic vaccines is all hurt now that we know he is a moron.

          • sabelmouse

            🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            “Do you have a dumber line from someone else?”
            Too many dumb antivax contenders to count.
            I should start keeping a list.

          • Mike Stevens

            To add, he now thinks that “airborne transmission” of viruses like measles doesn’t exist.

          • Justthefacts

            There is no end to that idiot. He has set a new low bar.

          • Mike Stevens

            I am trying to recall if it was him who said Haemophilus influenzae was the Influenza virus, and cursed and swore and called me stupid for contradicting him.

            Sorry, that was “Tannim” – probably just one of his multiple socks.

          • CharlieB1972

            “Do you have a dumber line from someone else?”

            I do. Tristan Wells says that lung cancer and tuberculosis are the same disease.

          • Justthefacts

            Okay. I’ll have to think about it but that is close to maximum stupidity. I will propose that thinking vaccines are homeopathic is stupidity about the primary subject of the conversation where thinking cancer and tuberculosis are the same disease is peripheral stupidity. That’s my argument for Tristan being the second dumbest person on the boards.

            Your turn.

          • Mike Stevens

            What makes you assume the vaccine contains “smaller doses”, anyway?

            To catch typhoid you need to swallow as few as 100 Salmonella typhi bacilli. The live typhoid vaccine contains millions.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…To catch typhoid you need to swallow as few as 100 Salmonella typhi bacilli.”

            The primary scientific source for that is “Mike Steven’s ass”.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..you just copied this from one of my posts:”…The vast majority of medical conditions clear up without medical intervention”

            By equating my statement to yours, you acknowledge that the immune system that has evolved for millions of years is not defective and can function properly without vaccine homeopathic quakery.

            Now we all see who has trouble keeping her thoughts straight.

          • Justthefacts

            You are just a moron. You think vaccines and homeopathy is the same thing. You are a new level of stupid.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            No, I said vaccines are the worst kind of homeopathy: toxic homeopathy. You’re not paying attention and therefore your pee is aiming off the bowl.

          • Justthefacts

            you think vaccines are homeopathy. Saying that never gets old.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            If you were as smart as you pretend to, you’d be proving me wrong. Instead, you’re whining like a schoolgirl.

          • Justthefacts

            The dumb guy Vacunas is still posting.

          • Mike Stevens

            If the natural immune system is so wonderful, why have billions of kids died from infectious diseases in the last century?

            If the natural infant immune system is so wonderful, how is it that it is bettered with artificial help?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…why have billions of kids died from infectious diseases in the last century?

            Because malnourishment depresses the immune system.

            Africa proves that nearly 100% vaccination rate cannot curb mortality from infectious diseases among a malnourished population:

            http://www.theguardian.com/soc

            Measles vaccination rates in parts of Africa surpass those in North America.

            “..Good Governance Africa survey shows that 16 African countries have near 100% vaccination rates

            “That said, in 2000 an estimated 600 African children died from measles every day. Despite improved vaccination rates, the figure still stands at 400 a day, according to GGA’s researcher, Kate Van Niekerk.”

          • Mike Stevens

            But…but… evolution means Sooper Dooper Peter T Hooper immunity, surely!
            You mean eating the wrong stuff can just mess it up like that?
            Sounds like immunity needs a bit of help from vaccines, huh?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…evolution means Sooper Dooper Peter T Hooper immunity, surely!

            And don’t forget Super Muscles too if you’re a breatharian, Einstein.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..Sounds like immunity needs a bit of help from vaccines, huh?

            Obviously, the immune system has evolved to thrive on vaccines, not food.

            However, 400 measles deaths a day among populations vaccinated to nearly 100% does not really qualify as “help”, does it?

          • Mike Stevens

            And how many measles deaths per day were there in 0% vaccinated populations, Vacuous one?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…And how many measles deaths per day were there in 0% vaccinated populations, Vacuous one?”

            And how many would there be if the vaccine money would have been spent on improving their living conditions instead of being drained towards the US?

          • Mike Stevens

            A measles vaccine costs less than $1.00
            Feeding a child for life in the third world and ensuring access to 100% pure water 100% of the time costs a bit more than that.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..A measles vaccine costs less than $1.00”

            In contrast, the logistics involved (maintaining the cold chain, injection equipment, multiple level managers, etc.) are cost-free, isn’t it, moron?

          • Mike Stevens

            Unfortunately, you fail to appreciate that measles and other airborne infections are not “water borne”.
            They will happen even when kids have pure water and adequate sewerage and good food.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Jeesus! This moron truely believes measles viruses are lurking in the air. Next he’ll invoke zillions of studies that have proven it zillions of times and only exist in la-vax-land.

            Here, moron, this is what stops measles from spreading:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7853750

            The immune function and measles virus infection in three different socioeconomic child populations in Karachi, Pakistan.

            “…These results suggest that the living environmental conditions of these different socioeconomic groups vary greatly and hygienic conditions must influence the chance of encountering infectious pathogens including measles virus…”

          • Mike Stevens

            “This moron truely believes measles viruses are lurking in the air.”
            Do you have the vaguest concept of what “airborne transmission” means?
            Go read up about it before demonstrating how neuropenic you really are, and stop living up to your “vacuous” nym.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Do you have the vaguest concept of what “airborne transmission” means?”

            Concepts are one dime a dozen. A bit harder is to provide primary scientific sources proving the concept is fact-based rather than wild speculation for lack of anything better to show.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you don’t know what “airborne transmission” is.

            Thanks for the confirmation, vacuous one.

          • Kiko

            How do you know these things were not invented? You know how we all came to be, oh please dish, can not wait to hear this one.

          • Justthefacts

            So you really think you invented breathing….
            You invented breathing
            I’ll just let that stand on it’s own.

          • Kiko

            I love when I get personalized pics, snap your fingers and sing along, is JTF mad, snap, or nah, snap, mad, snap, or nah, snap

          • zulov

            Especially in your mirror.

          • Justthefacts

            Ok, third comment that was just trolling. You lose.

          • Kiko

            I do wonder who invented the cream pie though.

          • Justthefacts

            In total, 76 million people in the United States get sick and 5,000 people die each year from food-related illnesses.

            Its safer to get vaccinated than it is to eat.

          • Kiko

            I think you have been face first in Dorits pie again, toxic overload.

          • Justthefacts

            Now you are just trolling.

          • Tony S

            I do believe Justthefacts is in need of Ritalin for his ADHD. I keep seeing silly memes instead of intelligent arguments. He’s out of control. Perhaps a double dose of Ritalin?

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…Its safer to get vaccinated than it is to eat.”

            Obviously, since man is the result of millions of years of Evolution in a vaccine-rich environment, not a food-rich one, is that it?

            When we thought the height of idiocy had been reached, Justthefact surprises us.

          • Justthefacts

            Mr. Homeopathic vaccines is still being stupid.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Divide the risk by the number of meals, stupider!

          • Justthefacts

            Less than 300 people are injured every year by vaccines. 5000 people die every year from eating. You are also stupid with numbers.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Go get 3 vaccines a day like you get 3 meals, smart ass, then come back to me. Your understanding of maths tells me you make a living by cleaning skid marks off public toilets.

          • Justthefacts

            Mr homeopathic vaccines is still bad at math.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Your “logic” works like this:

            Cyanide kills less that 20 people a year. In contrast, 5,000 people die every year from eating, therefore food is more poisonous than cyanide.

            Don’t forget to flush when you leave!

          • Justthefacts

            To start will, stupid, the number is closer to 300 cyanide deaths per year with 294 in 2013.
            Second, cyanide isn’t not an :”activity”, you moron. People don’t take cyanide for fun. Is there no end your ignorance and arrogant stupidity?
            How many stupid things are you going to say before you stop?

          • Mike Stevens

            I am familiar with vaccine inserts, and there are only a very small number of vaccines which can cause encephalopathy or encephalitis. This is vanishingly rare, so for MMR vaccine for instance it is less than one in a million vaccine shots.

            Your implication is that vaccines cause autism, which at supposed prevalence rates would mean that vaccines would cause “encephalitis/encephalopathy” in one in 40 children.
            Your numbers don’t add up, but that is always one of the antivaxers’ problems, isn’t it?

          • Mike Stevens
          • Sia

            Oh, don’t tell us you don’t know the difference between an adverse event and a side effect, Vacunas.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Of course I do, an adverse event is a “plausibly deniable” side effect observed in a trial setting.

            What do manufacturers report adverse events for? so that you can deny the relationship to the product?

          • Sia

            It’s legal CYA.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “..It’s legal CYA…”

            of course it is … just in case a victim claims “I wasn’t informed about the risks”

          • Kiko

            Brain damage is listed on the inserts, try again.

          • Sia

            There is a difference between adverse event and side effect – it’s explained on the inserts – try again.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            “…There is a difference between adverse event and side effect – it’s explained on the inserts..”

            No difference for the subject’s point of view, though! LOL

            Why would manufacturers report adverse events if they were truly unrelated to the vaccines as you believe?

          • Kiko

            Vaccines cause brain damage, that is why they had to put it on the insert. If someone breaks their club feet they don’t list it on the insert so take your turf tactic and try again.

          • Kiko

            If you are an MD then I am a helicopter.

        • Mike Stevens

          “Autism is poorly defined.”
          It has clear criteria for definition, but it is a clinical construct with some uncertainty about the significance of any one symptom or sign.
          But I agree with you, it is unclear, which enables antivaccine activists to incorrectly claim that any form of neurological manifestation is “autism”.

        • Retiree

          Forget ‘plausible’, show us your verified proof. No blogs, no phony anti-vaxxer websites, no debunked articles. PROOF!

      • zulov

        There are over 100 studies linking brain damage caused by vaccines to autism. Do your research if you have a conscience.

        But then again you’re probably a paid industry troll.

        • There are many more studies debunking that link. The overwhelming consensus of experts is that vaccines do not contribute in any way to autism; I am not aware of *any* autism specialists, neurologists, or epidemiologists who disagree.

          There will always be a few papers taking contrary positions. That’s how human beings work–we like to be contrarians. There’s a peer-reviewed paper out there that concludes that Bigfoot is real and has angel and/or alien DNA: http://www.sasquatchgenomeproject.org/sasquatch_genome_project_002.htm

          Does that mean that half-angel Bigfoots are stalking our forests? No. It means that people can publish anything they want. The consensus of experts is the best guide to actual scientific fact.

          There’s a reason that the expert consensus favors the safety and efficacy of vaccines: they’re safe and effective. That’s why actual neurologists and autism specialists vaccinate themselves and their families: they know more about it than we do, and conclude that vaccines are the best way to protect your children from dangerous diseases.

          • Sia

            1)If someone makes a claim that someone is being paid – it is up to them to prove it, not up to the accused to prove they’re not.

            2)Even if someone was being paid, that wouldn’t actually affect whether their comment was true or not. Might alter the likelihood but if, say, hypothetically, I paid someone to post that 1+1 = 2 and hypothetically, Colin was to prove that they were paid…guess what? 1+1 still = 2.

      • eggman2

        You are another propaganda prostitute working for the junk medicine robber barons ( the vaccine makers ) ? I think I can remember you.

        • I have never worked for a vaccine maker. The myth that people who disagree are shills is a defense mechanism–a way to justify ignoring opinions that make you uncomfortable, because you cannot find facts that justify your position. There is a reason that 99.99% of doctors support vaccination and vaccinate their own families: vaccines are safe and effective. The scare stories you’re falling for are urban legends, like people who railed against electric lights because they supposedly emitted poisonous vapors.

          • eggman2

            Aaaah, this is where the truth comes out. There are only two choices: either you are a propaganda prostitute working for the junk medicine robber barons ( the vaccines and other junk medicine makers ) , or you are an extremely stupid person. You have chosen the last choice. That is so because it is extremely stupid to believe that injecting ” GMO-putrefactive-biohazardous material in a soup of carcinogens, mutagens, and teratogens ” ( VACCINES ) is good for one’s health.

            You might as well could have said that 100% of allopathic physicians are stupid, and you would be right. A profession that for centuries has been having women giving birth lying down, cutting the umbilical cord, performing circumcision, and so on. If it wasn’t for those stupid guys there would not be any ambulance chasing lawyers around. They poison people, maim people, kill people; there is no end to it. But stupid people, that are very much influenced by the placebo effect, still believe that they can achieve good health just by visiting them.

          • eggman2

            If every time that I am going to answer you, they are going to erase my comment because you are one of their favorite propaganda prostitutes, there is nothing I can do. Money wins.

      • Kiko

        And what of the Dr.s who take kickbacks for pushing meds? Bias Bias Bo Bias

    • Francis Sincere

      Wow, it’s amazing that this “comment” has stayed on the top of pile for 2 days……time to change it up.

    • zulov

      Liar! You’re an industry troll, admit it!

      • Sia

        Your claim. Your burden of proof.

    • eggman2

      There you go. Spitting out more of your vaccine propaganda prostitute’s lies again. Anti science is the stupid-allopathic-modern-junk-medical-pseudoicientific religion.

    • ione murphy

      Dangerous lies…coming from real scientists and medical professionals.

      ‘Science Journal Pulls 60 Papers in Peer-Review Fraud’

      July10, 2014 source: The New York Times

      And another article…

      “In the past 2 years, journals have been forced to retract more than 110 papers in at least 6 instances of peer-review rigging. What all these cases had in common was that researchers exploited vulnerabilities in the publishers’ computerized systems to dupe editors into accepting manuscripts, often by doing their own reviews. The cases involved publishing behemoths Elsevier, Springer, Taylor & Francis, SAGE and Wiley, as well as Informa, and they exploited security flaws that — in at least one of the systems — could make researchers vulnerable to even more serious identity theft”…Source nature dot com-news-publishing-the peer- review-scam

      How about some more news headlines…

      “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” -Dr. Marcia Angell

      ‘Fraud in medical journals increasing’

      “The percentage of scientific articles retracted due to fraud has increased approximately 10-fold since 1975, with a smaller increase in retractions due to error.”

      ‘Deceit and fraud in medical research’

      Abstract

      Deceit and fraud in medical research is a serious problem for the credibility of published literature. Although estimating its prevalence is difficult, reported incidences are alarming” source Journal-Surgery

      ‘A New Low in Drug Research: 21 Fabricated Studies’

      “Dr. Scott Reuben, who is accused of faking medical research studies, including some that were published in medical journals, was charged with health care fraud Thursday in federal court in Boston”

      ‘Medical Research Fraud: Professors Go Unpunished in Glaxo $3 Billion Guilty Plea Over Paxil-‘

      “The journal that published the fraudulent research has failed to retract it, and editor-in-chief Andres S. Martin, a professor of psychiatry at Yale, told the Chronicle he had no comment on the options the journal might take.

      Although Glaxo pled guilty and paid $3 billion in fines, none of the academics have been disciplined by their universities for their roles in perpetrating research fraud. Moreover, according to the Chronicle, several continue to receive federal grants from the National Institute of Health”…source The Nation

      “Scientific Publisher BioMed Central has withdrawn 43 papers, and is investigating many more, over what it calls the “fabrication” of peer reviews. Representatives of Journal editors have admitted the papers are the tip of a dangerous iceberg, and the scandal may to lead to an overhaul of how peer review is conducted.

      Peer review is fundamental to science, a central part of the process of self-correction that sets it aside from faith-based systems. True peer review does not end with publication; plenty of scientific papers are published only to subsequently be shown to have major flaws.

      The Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE) issued a statement saying they have, “become aware of systematic, inappropriate attempts to manipulate the peer review processes of several journals across different publishers” ..source iflscience

  • Allison Hagood

    Thank you for supporting common sense legislation to improve vaccination rates and protect children’s health. Parents who reject vaccinations do so out of emotion rather than logic and science, and children should be protected from those types of decisions.

    • My son was injured from being vaccinated. There is plenty of science and logic in the medical literature to substantiate vaccines have the capability to injure and harm children.

      • Dorit Reiss

        The rare cases of vaccine injuries are tragic. Nothing is 100% safe, and while it’s extremely rare, vaccines sometimes do cause serious harms, most commonly through a severe allergic reaction.

        The cases of parents that believe against the evidence that vaccines cause the children’s harm – and that is true of most internet vaccine injury stories, which includes claims that vaccines cause autism, allergies, and other things they don’t cause – are also very sad. Those parents are caught in unjustified bitterness and anger, and in addition, use their stories to scare others from protecting their children from diseases.

        http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/vaccine-injury-stories-the-sacred-cows-of-the-internet/

        http://pediatrics.about.com/od/vaccinesafety/fl/Vaccine-Injury-Stories.htm

        Those rare harms, however, do not negate the point above: the small risks of vaccines are much smaller than the risks of not vaccinating. For each child except the few with medical contraindications – and those kids depend on the rest of us – vaccinating is the safer choice. And if a child is denied vaccines, society can and should at least act to reduce the risk of disease to others.

        After all, the vaccine-deprived vaccines are at highest risk if there’s an outbreak. Reducing the number of non-vaccinated children and preventing them from making schools less safe protects society and protects the children left unvaccinated, too.

        • The injuries are tragic – and since there is not a system used for tracking vaccine injuries, you have no data to make that assumption.

          Moreover, adverse drug reactions are the 4th leading cause of death in the country. I wonder how high it would be if vaccines (and yes, they are classified as a drug) were also taken into account?

          http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/DevelopmentResources/DrugInteractionsLabeling/ucm110632.htm

          After all, the same drug manufacturers also make the vaccines.

          • Dorit Reiss

            We don’t depend on reports and tracking to know about vaccine injuries. They are studied in studies from all around the world. For example, studies looked at whether they caused leukemia, allergies, autism – and found they did not.

            But there are also systems to tracking vaccine injuries in every country. In the U.S., as was already mentioned by you, there are two – VAERS, a passive system which the CDC uses to track patterns, and VSD.

            We know a lot about vaccine safety. So we do know that vaccine injuries are very, very rare. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079

          • We do? Your reference is not a case controlled study.

          • Dorit Reiss

            My reference is a review article reviewing studies. Are you unaware that we have many studies looking at these issues? For example, of leukemia:

            Groves FD, Gridley G, et. al. Infant vaccinations and risk of
            childhood acute lymphoblastic leukaemia in the USA. Br J Cancer. 1999
            Sep;81(1):175-8. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487630

            Ma X, Does MB,
            et. al. Vaccination history and risk of childhood leukaemia. Int J Epidemiol.
            2005 Oct;34(5):1100-9. Epub 2005 Jun 10.
            http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/5/1100.long

            If you are unaware of the many studies looking at vaccine safety, I urge you to read them.

          • Your reference is still not case-controlled, regardless of what you post afterwards. Sorry.

          • Dorit Reiss

            The reference is a meta review of studies that include case controlled studies.

            Why are you under the impression case-controlled is a higher form of evidence than a meta-review? That’s not generally the case.

          • Reality022

            As shown by his VAERS list/statement, Jeffry is apparently functionally illiterate.
            That may explain it.

          • Justthefacts

            Jeffry John Aufderheide is behind Vactuth.com and has been accused of lying about his navy career by the daily beast. and defends child abusers. He is not worth a minute of your time. See my post above.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Meta review = opinion review.

          • lynneb

            So you don’t understand meta reviews either. Oh, what a surprise. We’re all so surprised. Surprised, I tell you.

            Meta reviews collect together the highest quality clinical tests and pool the data.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Your reference is still not case-controlled, regardless of what you post afterwards. Sorry.”

            You appear not to know what a “case controlled” study is, Jeffrey.

            Dorit’s first citation provides a perfect example:

            Vaccination histories were compared in 439 children (ages 0–14) diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukaemia (ALL) in nine Midwestern and Mid-Atlantic states (USA) between 1 January 1989 and 30 June 1993 and 439 controls selected by random-digit dialing and individually matched to cases on age, race and telephone exchange. Among matched pairs, similar proportions of cases and controls had received at least one dose of oral poliovirus (98%), diphtheria–tetanus–pertussis (97%), and measles–mumps–rubella (90%) vaccines.

            Sorry.

          • Justthefacts

            Jeffry John Aufderheide is behind Vactuth.com and claims that vaccines cause homosexuality and defends child abusers. He is not worth a minute of your time. See my post above.

          • CharlieB1972

            For anyone who’s wondering what’s meant by this post, Vactruth ran at least one article trying to tie vaccines to shaken baby syndrome. Pro-vaxxers rightfully want to blame the criminals who shake their babies!

            https://vactruth.com/2015/10/27/mistaken-shaken-baby-syndrome/

          • Linda Tock

            Meta studies are the best evidence. Case studies etc, are on the lower rung of evidence.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            Warning: the preceding post s a slogan soup. Any similarity with reality is pure coincidence.

          • Katia

            Oh? No system for tracking vaccine injuries? You’ve never heard of VAERS?

          • Linda Tock

            Or the vaccine safety datalink..

          • MDBritt

            There is a system used for tracking vaccine injuries: VAERS.

            Harm or even death from preventable diseases are FAR more likely than harm from vaccines. I am sorry if your child had an adverse reaction but your demands would place other people’s children at inappropriate risk given any reasonable cost/benefit analysis.

          • Sia

            Wrong. Vaccines are classed as biologics.

        • Vacunas Autismo

          Vaccinating amounts to deliberately exposing healthy kids to iatrogenic damage. In contrast, opting out of vaccines does not mean deliberately exposing kids to illness, since vaccination is a routine procedure despite lack of a concrete and measurable epidemic threat.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Choosing not to vaccinate is consciously choosing to leave a child at risk of disease. Just like choosing not to maintain your brakes is consciously choosing to risk their failing.

          • Vacunas Autismo

            What risk of disease? Would you care to calculate what the risk of polio is in the absence of polio? Please drop the brainless canned slogans, will you?

          • Dorit Reiss

            Why is polio absent? Because most people vaccinate. But it, too, is still only a plane ride away.

          • Joe Hardhat

            The biggest causal tie with autism is Supplemental Security Income (SSI) checks for a child to a parent for a social / psychological / mental disorder diagnosis such as autism, which is a spectrum disorder where there’s a large degree of subjectivity. When welfare reform eliminated Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and replaced it with Temporary Aid to Needy Families (TANF), many welfare folks were looking for another source of income. SSI fit the bill, and many welfare parents coached their kids to “act crazy” in order when meeting with a sympathetic school psychologist or mental health professional to get “crazy checks”, that is a SSI benefit. Autism increased markedly in the aftermath of welfare reform.

            By the way, I’m pro vaccination, and agree wholeheartedly with the editorial. But why is it the lower the family income the greater the incidence of autism?

            Congress May Investigate ‘The Other Welfare:’ SSI
            http://hereandnow.wbur.org/201

            Aid to disabled children now outstrips welfare
            https://www.bostonglobe.com/me

            “The dramatic growth of the children’s Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program has led some researchers to suggest it has simply replaced welfare as a primary source of cash for many families who lost benefits due to the much-touted welfare reforms of the mid-1990s.”

            “The expansion also comes amid a growing recognition among lawmakers and policy analysts that children’s disabilities, especially harder-to-assess ones like ADHD, have become a gateway to receive the best government cash benefits available today, and this trend deserves closer study.”

          • Matt Carey

            This is nonsense. Just to get that out there.

            I am the parent of an autistic child with very significant challenges. I am also very well educated on the supports available and a strong advocate for my child.

            SSI support has NEVER been an option for me or for other families I know with disabled children. While some families do obtain this, it is by far the exception and not the rule.

            Further, “Joe Hardhat” exhibits his extreme ignorance of autism by claiming that it is “acting crazy”. Further, if he can teach a disabled child of 2 to “act crazy” in a manner convincing enough to fool a psychiatrist, I suggest that he would be better using his time teaching disabled children (not to act crazy, but if he believes he has such an amazing skill set, put it to good use).

            In short, I repeat myself. This is nonsense.

          • Joe Hardhat

            ADHD is the main feigned or exaggerated diagnosis in order collect SSI, not the autism spectrum.

          • Matt Carey

            Let’s see, I point out that “Joe Hardhat” has no evidence and he replies with a no evidence statement.

            Did you try to look up Mandell’s study? Do you even know how?

          • Joe Hardhat

            The Other Welfare
            http://www.boston.com/news/health/specials/New_Welfare/

            The Other Welfare – A legacy of unintended side effects
            http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/12/12/with_ssi_program_a_legacy_of_unintended_side_effects/

            “And once a family gets on SSI, it can be very hard to let go. The attraction of up to $700 a month in payments, and the near-automatic Medicaid coverage that comes with SSI approval, leads some families to count on a child’s remaining classified as disabled, even as his or her condition may be improving. It also leads many teenage beneficiaries to avoid steps — like taking a job — that might jeopardize the disability check.”

            “Of the 1.2 million low-income children nationwide who received SSI checks last year, 53 percent, or 640,000, qualified because of mental, learning, or behavioral issues, up from 8 percent in 1990. By significant margins, the top two disorders are Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, or ADHD, and delayed speech in young children, followed by autism spectrum disorders, bipolar illness, depression, and learning problems, according to the Social Security Administration, which runs this program and the $55 billion SSI system for adults.”

          • Dorit Reiss

            Then SSI is not behind the autism epidemic and your original comment was incorrect.

          • Joe Hardhat

            Autism is not far behind ADHD .

          • Matt Carey

            Now I will go out on a limb and point out that I suspect that “Joe Hardhat” is a coward. Courage means apologizing for making disparaging comments about the disabled. I doubt “Joe Hardhat” has the backbone.

            If true to the form, “Joe Hardhat” will either disappear or come back and make further attacks in an attempt to defend his position.

            Note that “Joe Hardhat” presented no evidence. Just opinions stated as fact.

            Joe Hardhat is encouraged to look up the work of David Mandell. Prof. Mandell explored the incomes of families who have autistic children. Income levels are *lower* in these families. Not higher. Certainly not high enough to be pulling the average family income in the US higher (” But why is it the lower the family income the greater the incidence of autism?”

            Repeating myself yet again. His argument is nonsense. It uses stigmatizing language, not only to autistics, but to those with mental illness. Further, he speaks with authority on subjects he is clearly ignorant of.

          • Joe Hardhat

            Coward for speaking the truth and also providing references. I could provide many other credible and convincing references from reputable sources. What can you provide besides your own thoughts.

            As to courage, I’m a Vietnam vet who saw combat in 1969-70 and received a Purple Heart. No Canada or student deferment for me. What have you done?

        • Justthefacts

          Jeffry John Aufderheide
          is behind Vactuth.com and defends child abusers. He is not worth a minute of your time.

      • Katia

        What is the nature of your son’s injury?

        • lynneb

          “imaginary”

          • Katia

            That’s what I thought. Autism, maybe?

        • Justthefacts

          Vactruth.com is a website operated by Jeffry John Aufderheide and Christina England to oppose childhood vaccination. This site was founded in 2009 by Jeffry John Aufderheide. In 2001 his first son, Brandon, stopped reaching his developmental milestones. After Anfderheide’s personal research of vaccine literature, Jeffry came to the conclusion, on his own, that vaccinations where responsible.

      • Justthefacts

        We know you from Vactruth. Your kid was not injured from being vaccinated and that is well know and entirely your imagination,
        Moreover,
        .
        Vactruth.com is a website operated by Jeffry John Aufderheide and Christina England to oppose childhood vaccination. This site was founded in 2009 by Jeffry John Aufderheide. In 2001 his first son, Brandon, stopped reaching his developmental milestones. After Anfderheide’s personal research of vaccine literature, Jeffry came to the conclusion entirely on his own, that vaccinations where responsible.

        Vactruth.com has a poor rating for both trudtworiness and child safety from WOT due to Misleading or unethical claims in addition to hate and discrimination speech based on 403 reviews.

        Vactruth.com has publically made the claim that vaccines may cause homosexuality. This claim is highly disputed.

        Jeffry John Aufderheide has been accused of lying about his navy career by the daily beast. The Navy discredited Aufderheide’s claim that he served as a “rescue swimmer,” stating that he actually served four years as an Information Systems Technician, Third Class.

        In May 2013, during an interview on Alex Jones’ InfoWars, Aufderheide discussed a new government-funded mobile app that he believes is designed to track anti-vaxxers. Later in the same interview, Aufderheide claimed the polio vaccine gives people cancer.

        A writer for Vactruth posted on January 16th, 2104 that a “”Father Jailed For Life Without Parole After His 12 Week-Old Daughter Died After Receiving 8 Vaccinations!” blaming the vaccinations for the death. The police searched the father’s apartment and found crack cocaine. On December 3, 2013 Stephen Guertin, and expert on child abuse, testified that there is no doubt,” Guertin said, “there was violence inflicted on this baby.” He said there were multiple impact sites on her head. Describing autopsy photos to the jury, Guertin said: “You have to have an impact to get those… You have to hit the baby or the baby has to be hit against something.” There are no other parties that claim that vaccines can cause “impact sites” on the head other than Vactruth.com.

        Vactruth.com has a pattern of providing support for a accused child abusers as documented by Science blogs.
        You are a horrible person who protects child abusers. I think that sums it up.

      • Justthefacts

        We know you from Vactruth. Your kid was not injured from being vaccinated and that is well know and entirely your imagination,
        Moreover,
        .
        Vactruth is a website operated by Jeffry John Aufderheide and Christina England to oppose childhood vaccination. This site was founded in 2009 by Jeffry John Aufderheide. In 2001 his first son, Brandon, stopped reaching his developmental milestones. After Anfderheide’s personal research of vaccine literature, Jeffry came to the conclusion entirely on his own, that vaccinations where responsible.

        Vactruth has a poor rating for both trudtworiness and child safety from WOT due to Misleading or unethical claims in addition to hate and discrimination speech based on 403 reviews.

        Vactruth has publically made the claim that vaccines may cause homosexuality. This claim is highly disputed.

        Jeffry John Aufderheide has been accused of lying about his navy career by the daily beast. The Navy discredited Aufderheide’s claim that he served as a “rescue swimmer,” stating that he actually served four years as an Information Systems Technician, Third Class.

        In May 2013, during an interview on Alex Jones’ InfoWars, Aufderheide discussed a new government-funded mobile app that he believes is designed to track anti-vaxxers. Later in the same interview, Aufderheide claimed the polio vaccine gives people cancer.

        A writer for Vactruth posted on January 16th, 2104 that a “”Father Jailed For Life Without Parole After His 12 Week-Old Daughter Died After Receiving 8 Vaccinations!” blaming the vaccinations for the death. The police searched the father’s apartment and found crack cocaine. On December 3, 2013 Stephen Guertin, and expert on child abuse, testified that there is no doubt,” Guertin said, “there was violence inflicted on this baby.” He said there were multiple impact sites on her head. Describing autopsy photos to the jury, Guertin said: “You have to have an impact to get those… You have to hit the baby or the baby has to be hit against something.” There are no other parties that claim that vaccines can cause “impact sites” on the head other than Vactruth.com.

        Vactruth has a pattern of providing support for a accused child abusers as documented by Science blogs.
        .
        You are a horrible person who protects child abusers. I think that sums it up.

    • Graceds

      Vaccines aren’t tested for carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, or fertility effects.

      • lynneb

        That’s because there is not even remotely any evidence anywhere that those are or even could be issues. We don’t spend scarce time and money testing for effects that we are confident don’t exist.

        • We could start with the contamination of the polio vaccine with SV40. But I am sure you will immediately dismiss that.

          However, there is a history of vaccine, sera, cell line and other contamination.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed&uid=7762264

          • Dorit Reiss

            And when there is reason to think vaccines have anything to do with cancer, studies are done, as for the SV40 contamination.

            Most of the time, there is no such basis.

            And note the need of anti-vaxers to refer to an old scandal from the 1960s. I’d say that is evidence –
            A. That real problems with vaccines are not hidden. They are, as this was, public.
            B. That such problems are very rare.

          • You’ll have to source where you get your opinion from when it comes to, “most of the time.”

          • Dorit Reiss

            No, actually. If you want to claim there is a general biological basis to think vaccines cause cancer, you should provide it. We know there was concern they cause childhood leukemia – and the studies I posted above examined that and showed they did not. We know there was concern about the SV40. Other than that, what’s the basis to claim vaccines can, in any way, cause cancer?

          • You’re right.

            We should just assume that all of the biological products vaccines are made with are completely safe, regardless of what any of the scientific literature says.

            No testing should be required.

          • Dorit Reiss